What is Vancian magic and does DnD have it?

[Starfox]

The word "Vancian" magic is commonly applied to DnD magic, especially pre 4th edition. But what does the word mean? Do we need to read Jack Vance's Dying Earth to understand it?

In a DnD context, I submit that "Vancian" means "based on daily uses of spells, generally prepared in advance". You do NOT need to read the Vance books to understand this, and in fact reading the books might confuse you, as the magic there is quite different.

Now, I absolutely recommend these books on their own merit. They have a great milieu and intriguing stories. Vancian adjectives are at least as rich as Lovecraftian ones. But to reference them and say they give a greatuer understanding of the DnD magic system is not really good advice. DnD's magic might have been inspired by Vance's work, but it started quite different and developed in its own direction for 30 years now.

if you really want Vancian magic in a RPG context, try the Dying Earth RPG (by Pellegrine press IIR).

 

[Aus_Snow]

This is one reason why I've often referred to D&D's magic system (OD&D through to PFRPG) as pseudo-Vancian.

There have always been a number of other influences in there - everything from Biblical stories to nods t'wards simple playability.

 

[Doug McCrae]

In a DnD context, I submit that "Vancian" means "based on daily uses of spells, generally prepared in advance". You do NOT need to read the Vance books to understand this

Agreed.

and in fact reading the books might confuse you, as the magic there is quite different.

I'd say it's fairly similar. There are no travelling spellbooks in Vance, wizards always seem to leave their books at home. The number of spells they can memorise is much more limited than it is in D&D, a powerful wizard can keep no more than half-a-dozen or so in his mind. There doesn't seem to be any daily limit. A wizard could cast a spell, go back to his books, relearn that spell, cast it, go back to his books, and so on with the only limit being how long it takes to memorise. I'm not sure if the stories say anything about how long this takes.

The lack of daily limit might look a lot different from D&D but the way it works for Dying Earth wizards in practice is - "One use of each spell per adventure. Regain your spells when you return home." This is pretty much the same as a 1-day D&D dungeon delve. Camping in the dungeon to relearn your spells always seemed a bit weird to me, anyway.

In Dying Earth wizards don't actually seem to focus on their spells that much. In fact to be a wizard means more "owns a large collection of magic items" than "casts spells". They are literally magic users. Rhialto the Marvellous uses his genie to do pretty much everything he needs.

The thing that really struck me about Dying Earth is how good a fit it is for the default 'Points of Light' setting in the D&D rules. Dying Earth is imo closer to the default D&D setting than any other in fiction. The world is old, there are many ruins. Travel outside the civilized areas is insanely dangerous, there are constant random encounters. There are lots and lots of magic items and many different kinds of monster. Wizards are the top dogs. This is just like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. "Magic is best" is true in Vance and the D&D worlds, not in Conan or early fantasy such as Morte d'Arthur.

 

[Umbran]

The word "Vancian" magic is commonly applied to DnD magic, especially pre 4th edition. But what does the word mean?

TV Tropes has the following in their article on Vancian Magic:

Vancian Magic is a specific form of "rule magic" that conforms to these functional rules (along with whatever other metaphysics the writer chooses):

1. Magical effects are packaged into distinct spells; each spell has one fixed purpose. A spell that throws a ball of fire at an enemy just throws balls of fire, and generally cannot be "turned down" to light a cigarette, for instance.

2. Spells represent a kind of "magic-bomb" which must be prepared in advance of actual use, and each prepared spell can be used only once before needing to be prepared again. That's why it also known as "Fire & Forget magic".

3. Magicians have a finite capacity of prepared spells which is the de facto measure of their skill and/or power as magicians. A wizard using magic for combat is thus something like a living gun: he must be "loaded" with spells beforehand and can run out of magical "ammunition".

They go on to give some non-D&D examples, as well.

 

[Vorput]

Huh.... I feel kind of stupid, but up until this thread I never made the connection between Jack Vance and 'Vancian magic'

I always thought it was just a word created to describe that system.

huh...

 

[Elphilm]

Doug McCrae sums it up very well. For a long time I've wanted to cook up an OD&D variant in which most spells would be at the power level of The Excellent Prismatic Spray, but each spell could only be used once per adventure, and a magician's brain could only hold 1-6 of such charms. A wizard's staying power would then come from magic items.

 

[Starfox]

The point I'm trying to make is that when people say "4E Magic is not Vancian", what they mean is that its not like 2E magic, without really referencing the works of Jack Vance.

 

[Imban]

The point I'm trying to make is that when people say "4E Magic is not Vancian", what they mean is that its not like 2E magic, without really referencing the works of Jack Vance.

This is true. But the other important issue is that no one* actually cares whether it's a good adaptation of the magic in the Dying Earth books specifically or not, since for better or for worse that's become the accepted term for the rules of Wizard spellcasting in all pre-4e D&D editions. "Yeah, well, 3e magic wasn't Vancian either!" is amazingly pedantic and "4e magic is actually MORE Vancian!" is an exercise in completely missing the point.

* I mean, not literally no one, but D&D isn't the Dying Earth RPG and "I prefer Vancian magic" is 99% people trying to say that they prefer the rules of Wizard spellcasting in all previous editions, not longing for a hypothetical system which more accurately provides for casting the Excellent Prismatic Spray on your foemen.

 

[Ourph]

In a DnD context, I submit that "Vancian" means "based on daily uses of spells, generally prepared in advance".

I don't think this is accurate. In my experience, the term Vancian is applied to D&D magic based on the "fire and forget" nature of spells, i.e. once a certain spell is cast it is actively lost from memory and needs to be restored by rememorization. Another aspect of this is that memorization is limited based on the individual power level of the caster. More powerful casters can hold in memory a greater number of and more powerful spells, but even the most powerful caster can still only hold a finite number of spells in memory at one time.

So the accuracy of the term Vancian really dwindled after 2e with the changes to the rules regarding spell "memorization" (switching to "preparation") and the advent of at-will casting classes like the Sorcerer in 3e. The mechanics may have still been similar, in that spells were limited to daily use, but the flavor details lost their Vancian nature.

So I think you are right that reading the Vance books is confusing in terms of applying "Vancian" to 3e magic. But that's because 3e magic isn't particularly Vancian, not because the term (as originally applied to D&D) means something different than it does in the fiction on which it was based.

 

[Ariosto]

The point I'm trying to make is that when people say "4E Magic is not Vancian", what they mean is that its not like 2E magic, without really referencing the works of Jack Vance.

2E, 1E, 0E, B/X E ... We could just call it "D&D magic" for accuracy. Somehow, I don't think that would please 4e fans better.