One hand, no depth perception. Vecna's a terrible bowler.
How do you handle Magic Circle in your game?
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One hand, no depth perception. Vecna's a terrible bowler.
Vexing question
So, Magic circle - this caused a big discussion during the last game.
We had a dead berberlang and cast a magic circle around the corpse vs the immortal type, and then used a raise dead ritual to chat with him.
Later we determined that he had to be killed.
First: he used his summon duplicate power to summon two duplicates outside of the barrier - would this work?
Second: our paladin attacked him with his glaive - would this automatically break the circle around the berberland, thus freeing him.
Curious what you all think.
So, Magic circle - this caused a big discussion during the last game.
We had a dead berberlang and cast a magic circle around the corpse vs the immortal type, and then used a raise dead ritual to chat with him.
Later we determined that he had to be killed.
First: he used his summon duplicate power to summon two duplicates outside of the barrier - would this work?
Second: our paladin attacked him with his glaive - would this automatically break the circle around the berberland, thus freeing him.
Curious what you all think.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
No, it won't break the circle, but note that while the berbalang can't affect anything outside the circle you have to be careful not to disrupt the circle yourselves. If any other monster happened to come along it could do so unless it had the same type the circle works against.
As for summoning doubles outside the circle, personally I wouldn't say it could do that. It seems against the intent of the way Magic Circle works. No power can manifest its effect across the boundary of the circle. Teleport seems to be taken to be an exception, but I honestly don't think it should be as there is nothing unique about it and as soon as you allow one effect then why exclude others? So really I play it as an absolute barrier. I guess in some DM's minds it just isn't worth much.
As for summoning doubles outside the circle, personally I wouldn't say it could do that. It seems against the intent of the way Magic Circle works. No power can manifest its effect across the boundary of the circle. Teleport seems to be taken to be an exception, but I honestly don't think it should be as there is nothing unique about it and as soon as you allow one effect then why exclude others? So really I play it as an absolute barrier. I guess in some DM's minds it just isn't worth much.
keterys
First Post
The wording of Magic Circle doesn't seem to prevent line of effect in any way. So it seems that it can create duplicates on the other side.
I don't see any wording of 'no power can manifest its effect across the boundary' or an exception for teleport. Just no restriction against teleport, either.
Don't see any reason using a reach weapon would break the circle, but could also see it as reasonable for a readied action to deflect a reach weapon resulting in the circle being struck, and thereby broken.
Same for bouncing arrows and such. Be a good use for p42 by a circled subject, PC or monster, really.
I don't see any wording of 'no power can manifest its effect across the boundary' or an exception for teleport. Just no restriction against teleport, either.
Don't see any reason using a reach weapon would break the circle, but could also see it as reasonable for a readied action to deflect a reach weapon resulting in the circle being struck, and thereby broken.
Same for bouncing arrows and such. Be a good use for p42 by a circled subject, PC or monster, really.
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Ryujin
Legend
Because it states that the affected creature cannot pass through the circle, effect creatures through the circle's boundary, or effect the boundary in any way perhaps? It's pretty cut and dried.
keterys
First Post
Sure, and they didn't do any of those things. The duplicate did. Or the paladin's polearm. Or whatever.
Pretty standard trope for such things.
Unless you want to argue that, for example, it can't ask someone to break the circle for it, since that's affecting the behavior of someone on the other side of the circle in a way that affects the boundary.
Seems pretty cut and dried, indeed.
Pretty standard trope for such things.
Unless you want to argue that, for example, it can't ask someone to break the circle for it, since that's affecting the behavior of someone on the other side of the circle in a way that affects the boundary.
Seems pretty cut and dried, indeed.
To avoid problems, this is how I'd rule on it:
- A higher tier adversary would always have some way to eventually get past the circle, perhaps with some inconvenience. It could be raw physical power (like the Tarrasque vs. heroic magic circle), a spell or some other way. I would inform the players that it is not "foolproof".
- There needs to be some kind of dispelling ritual. Perhaps it is more costly than the thing you are dispelling, and perhaps takes even more time, also I'd require some kind of contest of arcana skills (perhaps add a bonus for more ingredient cost, so that a super-high arcana skill is not 100% guaranteed to stand up to dispels).
- A higher tier adversary would always have some way to eventually get past the circle, perhaps with some inconvenience. It could be raw physical power (like the Tarrasque vs. heroic magic circle), a spell or some other way. I would inform the players that it is not "foolproof".
- There needs to be some kind of dispelling ritual. Perhaps it is more costly than the thing you are dispelling, and perhaps takes even more time, also I'd require some kind of contest of arcana skills (perhaps add a bonus for more ingredient cost, so that a super-high arcana skill is not 100% guaranteed to stand up to dispels).
UngeheuerLich
Legend
1. Monsters can do Rituals:
there is surely a break magic circle ritual for about the same cost and time
2. Yes, you trap yourself indefinitely. IMHO the ward against all creatures should not only be harder, but also not permanent, otherwise it is really a trap.
3. Runes on the ground need to be scribed in a way that it is not easily removed by natural forces. A warding circle in the open was never a goo idea, because a single leaf will blown there by a gust of wind, can break the circle. (You should rule out that you can´t blow it there yourself... but you can maybe pile some leaves up on the right direction.
So if you want a circle outside your town be worthwhile, you need some rocks or the city wall to make it work for more than some days.
Rain would destroy circles which are drawn hastily into sand in minutes.
4. An earthquake most surely destroys the circle.
5. Did I mention the destroy magic circle ritual?
6. A tarrasque is such a force of destruction, I bet it can break the circle by accident (I really expect the ground to be shattered by its steps or trees flying around and also birds falling from the sky within its aura, so it also will not last very long
7. enter or pass seems to allow you to do 2 kinds of circles: a oneway or a two way circle: so the circle against everything could be viable but you decide if it breaks if someone leaves or is there forever
8. The main question is: is it possible to obscure the runes indirectly... like undermining them etc.
there is surely a break magic circle ritual for about the same cost and time
2. Yes, you trap yourself indefinitely. IMHO the ward against all creatures should not only be harder, but also not permanent, otherwise it is really a trap.
3. Runes on the ground need to be scribed in a way that it is not easily removed by natural forces. A warding circle in the open was never a goo idea, because a single leaf will blown there by a gust of wind, can break the circle. (You should rule out that you can´t blow it there yourself... but you can maybe pile some leaves up on the right direction.
So if you want a circle outside your town be worthwhile, you need some rocks or the city wall to make it work for more than some days.
Rain would destroy circles which are drawn hastily into sand in minutes.
4. An earthquake most surely destroys the circle.
5. Did I mention the destroy magic circle ritual?
6. A tarrasque is such a force of destruction, I bet it can break the circle by accident (I really expect the ground to be shattered by its steps or trees flying around and also birds falling from the sky within its aura, so it also will not last very long
7. enter or pass seems to allow you to do 2 kinds of circles: a oneway or a two way circle: so the circle against everything could be viable but you decide if it breaks if someone leaves or is there forever
8. The main question is: is it possible to obscure the runes indirectly... like undermining them etc.
eamon
Explorer
Rituals in 4e seem to fulfill many of the same functions as toolbox spells in 3e. Perhaps some of the ideas from that edition would be useful here...
Particularly, many high level spells referred to each other. For example, an antimagic field might be negated by a mordenkainen's disjunction; a prismatic sphere holds up against such a field, and so on. Many of these effects were potentially problematic in the sense that they might dramatically affect creatures of wildly different levels, just like 4e rituals. However, they still represented a fun cat-and-mouse puzzel. The few time they'd come up, the challenge would be to think up just the right combination of effects to break through the BBEG's defenses - or to think up just the right combination of effects to become invulnerable to the unwitting BBEG's uber-attack.
In short, if you want inspiration as to how to play with such magic circles from a plot device perspective, I'd just peek back at 3e at look at the various options there. Many of those options can be converted to 4e with a bit of creativity, and they're worked out in much greater detail.
Fundamentally though, anything using skill checks can be grossly optimized via numerous techniques - and so you'll need another balancing factor when these become the measuring stick for power.
Particularly, many high level spells referred to each other. For example, an antimagic field might be negated by a mordenkainen's disjunction; a prismatic sphere holds up against such a field, and so on. Many of these effects were potentially problematic in the sense that they might dramatically affect creatures of wildly different levels, just like 4e rituals. However, they still represented a fun cat-and-mouse puzzel. The few time they'd come up, the challenge would be to think up just the right combination of effects to break through the BBEG's defenses - or to think up just the right combination of effects to become invulnerable to the unwitting BBEG's uber-attack.
In short, if you want inspiration as to how to play with such magic circles from a plot device perspective, I'd just peek back at 3e at look at the various options there. Many of those options can be converted to 4e with a bit of creativity, and they're worked out in much greater detail.
Fundamentally though, anything using skill checks can be grossly optimized via numerous techniques - and so you'll need another balancing factor when these become the measuring stick for power.
Or just consider that sort of Warding/Binding ritual as Conjuring a Zone.
Oh look, Dispel Magic works now.
I'd possibly make it so the PC had to do an Arcana check, taking maybe an hour of study to correctly identify the Conjuration/Zone effect before being able to target it properly with Dispel Magic if I didn't want it dropped instantly by a good roll.
TBH all magic should have a dispel/curcumvent method. As WotC haven't made an "Undo Ritual" ritual I'd use Dispel Magic as a means for stopping long standing rituals in an area (as they sound like a Zone to me). Could also handwave it as short term dispelling as it isn't truely a Zone you are targetting (so you have 5-10 minutes to play with then you are going to need to deal with it again).
IMO rituals are cool. They don't break the game - as they take a long time, burn a lot of cash, and can only be powergamed if your DM is being stupid (Tarrasque in a Lvl 10 game = stupid, or intended to be bypassed like this, at which point it isn't powergaming).*
They are a good way of giving characters some nice "think about it and we might have a way around this" options. Some are a bit vague, but common sense and care generally fix this (and who wants rituals that take 20 minutes to read?)
*As someone said, a Lvl 30 Minion in a Lvl 5 game is just as abusable, as a party of players may well be able to prep, buff, ambush and kill it for insane XP if given the hour or so a ritual needs. In fact, Stinking Cloud + go first = win. Minion starts its turn in the effect = dies. It's the DM's job to stop this stupidity not the PC's, or WotC's.
Oh look, Dispel Magic works now.
I'd possibly make it so the PC had to do an Arcana check, taking maybe an hour of study to correctly identify the Conjuration/Zone effect before being able to target it properly with Dispel Magic if I didn't want it dropped instantly by a good roll.
TBH all magic should have a dispel/curcumvent method. As WotC haven't made an "Undo Ritual" ritual I'd use Dispel Magic as a means for stopping long standing rituals in an area (as they sound like a Zone to me). Could also handwave it as short term dispelling as it isn't truely a Zone you are targetting (so you have 5-10 minutes to play with then you are going to need to deal with it again).
IMO rituals are cool. They don't break the game - as they take a long time, burn a lot of cash, and can only be powergamed if your DM is being stupid (Tarrasque in a Lvl 10 game = stupid, or intended to be bypassed like this, at which point it isn't powergaming).*
They are a good way of giving characters some nice "think about it and we might have a way around this" options. Some are a bit vague, but common sense and care generally fix this (and who wants rituals that take 20 minutes to read?)
*As someone said, a Lvl 30 Minion in a Lvl 5 game is just as abusable, as a party of players may well be able to prep, buff, ambush and kill it for insane XP if given the hour or so a ritual needs. In fact, Stinking Cloud + go first = win. Minion starts its turn in the effect = dies. It's the DM's job to stop this stupidity not the PC's, or WotC's.
