Which one do you prefer your character suffer? Death vs Rust Monster vs Level Drain

[Raven Crowking]

Ariosto, it should also be telling that, by the XP guidelines, had Gygax assumed that the average player would find and locate even the majority of treasure a site held, his expectations and experience of normal character level growth (discussed at some length previously) could not possibly be even remotely accurate.

It should be absolutely clear that Gygax's expectations, assumptions, and experience were not what Hussar is claiming.

We also have, of course, the statements made by Gygax about how he enjoyed disproving those assumptions when playing at conventions, when confronted by characters their players had not "earned" (in his estimation). "The slaughter will continue until play improves" could well have been the mantra of Convention Gary, in any event.


RC

 

[AllisterH]

Of course, Ariosto and RC are totally ignoring the classic thread about "levelling in pre 3e modules".

Basically, for those following along, other posters have actually gone through modules and the treasure tables and shown that you were expected to level (at least in 1e and OD&D) at a rate roughly equivalent to a 3e party (before name level)

The best argument against this proof has been "well, you can't assume the PCs will actually find everything" (of course, this also applies to 3e/4e since you can't assume the PCs will find everybody in the module)

 

[Raven Crowking]

Of course, Ariosto and RC are totally ignoring the classic thread about "levelling in pre 3e modules".

Basically, for those following along, other posters have actually gone through modules and the treasure tables and shown that you were expected to level (at least in 1e and OD&D) at a rate roughly equivalent to a 3e party (before name level)

The best argument against this proof has been "well, you can't assume the PCs will actually find everything" (of course, this also applies to 3e/4e since you can't assume the PCs will find everybody in the module)

Not so. Q's observations in that thread are interesting, but his conclusions have been debunked by utilizing statements made by Gary Gygax and Monte Cook re: expected speed of leveling, which allowed us to demonstrate conclusively that 1e was expected to level less frequently (at least from levels 1-10) than 3e.

The thread you are bringing up shows that the assumption that PCs will actually find everything is simply wrong.

Shortly thereafter, the thread was closed.


RC

 

[Ariosto]

...shown that you were expected to level...

That was on the assumptions that players went through one module after another; slew all monsters within; hauled out all treasure within; got full basic XP value regardless of relative level; never got slowed down by training ... a host of assumptions implausible to some of us who actually play the game.

(of course, this also applies to 3e/4e since you can't assume the PCs will find everybody in the module)

In the scenarios I have read, it's tough to avoid running into one stat-block that took ages to write after another. There's no great incentive to do so, either, as those "XP on the hoof" are the primary source. The 3e/4e players don't have to deal with securing treasure at all to score points. There is incentive to get herded from one encounter to the next, as "the story" is supposedly what it's all about.

That story business, I think, makes death, item loss and level drain bigger bothers.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That story business, I think, makes death, item loss and level drain bigger bothers.

Starting with DragonLance and embraced by 2e.

 

[Scribble]

There is incentive to get herded from one encounter to the next, as "the story" is supposedly what it's all about.

That story business, I think, makes death, item loss and level drain bigger bothers.

Guess it depends on how you work with the story element?

Starting with DragonLance and embraced by 2e.

Maybe? But I know I was involving story in my games before I played 2e or read Dragonlance. It was a creative game and I liked reading/writing so it only seemed natural I guess.

 

[Raven Crowking]

From Module B1: In Search of the Unknown:



First, it is crucial to keep in mind that this is a game based on player interaction and player choice. The game generally follows the course of the player's actions—if not always their plans! As moderator, you present an ever-changing situation as it occurs (sort of like an unfolding story, or even a movie, if you like to think in those terms), and the players respond pretty much as they desire. As the game goes on, you are presenting them with a hundred different opportunities and choices—exactly how the game goes will depend upon their response to those opportunities and choices. For instance, if players decide to walk down a corridor and find a dead end with three doors, they have a number of choices—simply turn around and ignore the doors, listen at one or more before proceeding elsewhere, try to open one or more (either normally, by forcing them, or even by simply bashing them in), or whatever. You describe the situation, then await their decision as to a course of action. Of course, some decisions will be more difficult, or quick, or crucial to survival—and as always, imagination and resourcefulness, as well as quick thinking, will usually be rewarded.

Second, a good DM remains "above the battle" and does not attempt to influence player actions or channel the activity in a particular direction. The Dungeon Master should do everything possible to assist players in their quest without actually providing important information unless the players themselves discover it or put the pieces of a puzzling problem together through deduction or questioning, or a combination of the two.

A large part of the game consists of player questions, many of which are, "What do we see?" Your job as gamemaster is to answer those questions without giving too much away. You need not hint to players any information that they do not ask for on their own, except in unusual instances. Allow them to ask the questions, and allow them to
make the choices.

In the same vein, as Dungeon Master you will enjoy watching players wrestle with the problems you present them with. Although you may set up situations to challenge them, you must understand that you are not their adversary, nor are you necessarily out to "defeat" them. You will enjoy moderating a well-played game where players respond to the challenges encountered much more than one where the adventurers foolishly meet their demise in quick time. However, if your players abandon caution or make stupid mistakes, let them pay the price—but be fair. In many cases, a danger due to lack of caution can be overcome, or a mistake in judgment countered by quick thinking and resourcefulness, but let your players do the thinking and the doing.

 

[Hussar]

Starting with DragonLance and embraced by 2e.

Funny you bring up Dragonlance, which is a 1e series of modules.

Look at the pregens for the modules. EVERY SINGLE ONE has a magic weapon by 5th level.

Again, not backpedaling at all. You guys failed to answer my question.

Is a 5th level party with 1 magic weapon each unreasonable in FIRST EDITION D&D? (Note again, I have no idea how OD&D worked, and am not talking about it)

 

[Ariosto]

Again, not backpedaling at all. You guys failed to answer my question.

(Sigh) Utter irrelevance on your question's part is not a failure on our part.

I think it reasonable that a party of 5th-level characters should all have magic weapons. I think it reasonable that a party of 5th-level characters should not all have magic weapons. I think it reasonable that they should have not one magic weapon among them. It all depends upon their circumstances. They have what they have acquired, less what they have left elsewhere. If they're in someone's literal dungeon, then they might wish they had some pointy sticks for making rat on a stick.

What of it??

Is your position that Gygax did assume that PCs would automatically have magic weapons when they needed them? If so, then please take a moment to notice that the proposition is fundamentally different from the subject of these rhetorical questions you pose.

If not, then you seem to have confused yourself from beginning to end. Unsurprisingly, the result is less than clear to others.

 

[billd91]

Is a 5th level party with 1 magic weapon each unreasonable in FIRST EDITION D&D?

Unreasonable? Not a bit. +1 weapons are fairly common and minor as magic items go. I'd especially expect to see it if a DM were following the advice of the 1e DMG and placing magic items that fit in with the campaign he's running, particularly since they'd be a natural defense in any area in which monsters only hit by magical weapons were relatively common.

That said, once the treasures were placed, it would be up to the skill and luck of the PCs to actually obtain them. Hopefully they're paying attention, being cautious enough that they aren't blundering into the worst danger areas without having a chance of picking up the some of the bolstering loot first.