Why do DM's like Dark, gritty worlds and players the opposite?

[Betote]

D&D extensive character advancement isn't true in all game systems .. you could begin extraordinarily competent and brightly colored cinematic with very little advancement so similar challenges will still be challenges on your 20th adventure as on the first that you play.

In many movies and books of widely different styles very little sense of character advancement is common... the tone of a story doesn't necessarily ...relate to dramatic changes in power level.

I wasn't talking specifically about character advancement, but the players' sense of wonder.

In G&G, if you keep it low, you don't need to best yourself when picturing the opposition. Alatriste doesn't face more and more dangerous challenges during his career.

On the other hand. take Marvel or DC, for example. There's little to none character advancement in terms of power, but once you've seen Superman or Thor fighting against whole alien invasions, godlings or Death itself, if on the next issue you see them catching a petty thief, your reaction would be "meh". You want their adventures bigger, badder and louder, whether or not the characters themselves advance in power.

 

[woodscanner]

(Long term lurker first time poster).
I've found this thread very intersting as my experience tallies with the OP.
There have been some very insightful replies, especially when trying to define the problem more accurately.
As a GM I certainly went through a phase ?6-8 years ago when I was running the Iron Kingdoms. I love this setting and ran it as my first 3rd ed campaign. I don't think it was a success (for a variety of reasons).
I agree that dark'n'gritty (by which I mean limited player options, limited power levels) is great from a GM point of view for telling a story. You can plan to take the players through the campaign from humble beginnings to great power. They will really appreciate the magic items they get because they started with so little. They will be using their wits more than dismissing problems with high level powers etc, etc.
However, I think the players have to trust you. Otherwise they can feel they have little control over events, that you are on a power trip etc, etc.
Coming from a long running high powered 1st ed campaign and starting 3rd ed the players were excited by all the new options. They didn't want to be told "no hobbits, no elves, no drow. Magic works differently. No raise dead. And we're switching to point buy"
I screwed up. To paraphrase the op, I as GM loved dark'n'gritty, the players didn't. I learnt al lot about DM pitfalls from that campaign, and this thread has helped me spot a couple more - thanks.

 

[Desdichado]

I think it's important not to mis-identify GMing problems, and in a sense that's what this thread has been about in my opinion. Players want options. They want to feel in control of their characters. They want to feel like they're significant. Poor GMs restrict too many options, restrict player control, drive the game in the direction they want it to, and in general lord it over their players, making the game less fun for the players.

Maybe there's a correllation between this type of poor GMing and grittier, darker settings, although I'm not convinced of it. But if so, the problem isn't a gritty, darker game, the problem is poor GMing.

I certainly "specialize" in darker, grittier, games, and yet my player in several groups over the years have seemed to really enjoy them. Why? Because 1) I make sure they have lots of options to build diverse and interesting characters, 2) I make sure that the PCs are at the center of the game, if not necessarily the center of the world, 3) I don't try to deliberately punish characters for my own amusement, and 4) I allow the PCs to take control of the game, and make it their own.

But those are good GMing principles no matter the power level, and I've seen plenty of high magic games that I disliked because of the GM hoarding power and control over the players.

 

[The Shaman]

I agree that dark'n'gritty (by which I mean limited player options, limited power levels) is great from a GM point of view for telling a story. (Emphasis added - TS)

I know part of my own cognitive dissonance with respect to this thread is that this is nothing like my understanding of what "grim'n'gritty" or "dark'n'gritty" means in the context of roleplaying games.

When I think of grim'n'gritty, it has nothing to do with the relative power level of the characters vis-à-vis the setting. Characters with great skill and martial prowess and access to powerful magic can easily coexist with a dark, dangerous setting - one does not in any way preclude the other.

Where I agree with the original poster is that characters in dark, dangerous settings don't get to "push the win button," I disagree with the notion that that's what most players are looking for.

 

[Andor]

I know part of my own cognitive dissonance with respect to this thread is that this is nothing like my understanding of what "grim'n'gritty" or "dark'n'gritty" means in the context of roleplaying games.

When I think of grim'n'gritty, it has nothing to do with the relative power level of the characters vis-à-vis the setting. Characters with great skill and martial prowess and access to powerful magic can easily coexist with a dark, dangerous setting - one does not in any way preclude the other.

Where I agree with the original poster is that characters in dark, dangerous settings don't get to "push the win button," I disagree with the notion that that's what most players are looking for.

The problem with a high powered yet darkly dangerous world is it quickly leads some types (like me) to wonder how the hell normal people survive in a world where roving packs of beholders jump you as you leave the shower.

 

[Nifft]

The problem with a high powered yet darkly dangerous world is it quickly leads some types (like me) to wonder how the hell normal people survive in a world where roving packs of beholders jump you as you leave the shower.

That would ruin my sense of disbelief, because Beholders don't have tentacles. Clearly, when leaving the shower, you'd be jumped by a pack of grell.

"Grim & Deeply Uncomfortable", -- N

 

[Raven Crowking]

Clearly, when leaving the shower, you'd be jumped by a pack of grell.

Finally, a post in this thread that matches my experience!

 

[Scribble]

Finally, a post in this thread that matches my experience!

You guys need to call upon the power of the scrubbing bubbles domain.

 

[The Shaman]

The problem with a high powered yet darkly dangerous world is it quickly leads some types (like me) to wonder how the hell normal people survive in a world where roving packs of beholders jump you as you leave the shower.

Heroes, of course.

 

[Garthanos]

I wasn't talking specifically about character advancement, but the players' sense of wonder.

In G&G, if you keep it low, you don't need to best yourself when picturing the opposition. Alatriste doesn't face more and more dangerous challenges during his career.

On the other hand. take Marvel or DC, for example. There's little to none character advancement in terms of power, but once you've seen Superman or Thor fighting against whole alien invasions, godlings or Death itself, if on the next issue you see them catching a petty thief, your reaction would be "meh". You want their adventures bigger, badder and louder, whether or not the characters themselves advance in power.

Superman went from leaping buildings in a single bound to flying faster than the speed of light.... they sometimes pretend the advancement doesnt occur but DC are prime offenders.

Spidermans moral compass means he holds back big time when fighting street thugs... sort of a way to sneak in a very similar power rewind that DC has to do more explicitly. Supermans experience with kryptonite color x has left his bodies ability to absorb certain bandwidths supressed so he can no longer do that xtra add on power which was only necessary for the last plot that was too over done anyway ;-). Doctor Strange gets periodic power rewinds too.. so it isnt just DC.