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Character ability v. player volition: INT, WIS, CHA

Celebrim

Legend
The skill check can be avoided only if the DM chooses not to call for a skill check.

No, you are wrong. The player can avoid the skill check if he has some other way of obtaining the information that the DM would relate as a result of passing the skill check without passing the skill check.

This is most commonly seen in skills like appraise, search, sense motive, and knowledge.

Faced with a skill challenge of an int based skill, the player has one of two options:

He can either ask for a skill check, and if he passes the check the DM will tell him the answer. Then the player can animate his character to act on this discovered knowledge.

OR...

He can not ask for a skill check and animate his character in such a way that he either discovers the knowledge without passing the skill check or else relies on his knowledge as a player to fill in the missing details. A character can search a room using a skill check. A player can also search a room by describing what his character does, eventually reaching a point where its unreasonable that the hidden article would not be found and catching the DM in a contridiction. A player can obtain knowledge from the DM, or the player can rely on his own knowledge from game books and other sources and not ask the DM for knowledge at all. For example, there might be a DC 15 religion check to recognize markings on the wall as being a particular obscure dieties holy symbol. Or, the player might just recognize the markings without the need for a skill check.

As for the result of the skill check being wildly inconsistent with the proposition made in RP: This is a possibility, admitted, and it's why Charisma is the hardest of the mental stats to define in a way that doesn't constrain RP.

Any of the the mental stats presents the same basic problems in various situations.

If you have a low Charisma, you may have made an eminently reasonable proposition (player actions result in a low DC on the Diplomacy check), but something about the way you presented it (character presence implied by Charisma) just grates on the other guy's nerves, so he refuses (your Charisma penalty means you fail the roll despite the low DC).

Or, if you have a high Charisma, you may have made an absurd proposition (player actions result in a high DC on the Diplomacy check), but you delivered it so smoothly and charmingly (character presence implied by Charisma) that you pull it off anyway and the guy agrees (your Charisma bonus means you succeed despite the high DC).

That's why, as I said upthread, a DM needs to separate content from delivery when dealing with the social skills. The content of a social interaction - the terms of the deal offered, the factual claim made, the points hit in the speech - should be factored into the DC of the skill check. The delivery - smooth or halting, eloquent or inarticulate - should not. It's fuzzier than I think a good rules system ought to be, but I don't see a way around it.

I know all of that, but unfortunately, content and delivery are not so perfectly separatable when it comes to defining what 'diplomacy' or 'bluffing' means. If we allow the player to define both the content and the delivery, that is to say, we allow the player to role play, the supposedly 'diplomatic' character can in fact deliver disasterous content. So, we must then ignore both the content and the delivery of the message, at which point, you start wondering why we are roleplaying in the first place.

I said the player, not the character. The PLAYER is not supposed to have monster stats memorized or go digging for them in the Monster Manual during play. If some players choose to memorize the MM, then it is incumbent upon them to segregate that knowledge; just like, if you're walking past me to get a drink and happen to glimpse my hand in a card game, you should avoid exploiting what you saw.

And again, how is this actually different than what I'm saying? The above seems like a complete confession that you aren't willing to take your argument to its logical conclusion, and that you in fact do agree that it is incumbant on the player to play his character.
 

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Dausuul

Legend
All RPG rules exist solely to resolve the following core conflict in role-playing:

Player #1: "BANG! I shot you."
Player #2: "No you didn't, you missed. BANG! I shot you."

Very true, and well stated. Where we differ is in how the rules should be implemented and what they should cover.

The way I see requiring people to RP mental stats, it's like making a rule that says:

"In case of dispute, if the shooter's finger is pointing close enough to the target, the target is hit."

Which tends to lead to:

Player #1: "BANG! I shot you."
Player #2: "No you didn't, your finger isn't pointing enough at me."
Player #1: "Yeah it is!"

Resolving this question is essentially impossible because the rule is vague and ambiguous. Contrast that with two other types of rules:

"In case of dispute, the shooter flips a coin and the target calls it in the air. If the shooter wins, the target is hit."

"Another player shall be designated the Cops'n'Robbers Master, and in case of dispute, the Cops'n'Robbers Master shall observe where the shooter's finger is pointing and decide if it's close enough to hit."

I believe all rules should be of one of the latter types. If it can't be boiled down to something clean and crisp and definite, then it should be up to the discretion of a single appropriate party. In this case (character behavior), the appropriate party is the player.
 
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Wolfwood2

Explorer
I think there are aspects of a character's personality and mental ability that are simply not covered under mechanical statistics and are not meant to be covered under mechanical statistics. Let's take the example of "puzzle solving" and divorce it from the artifical standard of some chess problem set up by the DM. Let's take a look at a more typical type of 'puzzle' you might see in a game.

So the PCs come into town, and they need to find this guy, and learn something he knows, and steal this widget that he has hidden away. So they ride up the road and see a town in the distance, and a player starts to talk.

PLAYER: Krog says, "Hey, we no want the bad dude to know we coming. Let's hide all our battle banners and tuck away our magic and hide the elf's ears, so that bad dude won't hear any rumors about us being in town."

Later in town...

PLAYER: Krog says, "I'm not good at at picking up street rumors. Krog is will go down to mercenary hall and hang around there and see if any of his people come in an make recruitment pitches or put up posters advertising for work."

Later in town...

PLAYER: Krog says, "Good job getting hired as a butler, Lefty. How about I give you all my weapons and armor and you hide them in the house? Then I show up and you hire me as a ditch digger, like I used to back on my Dad's farm. That way I can be close by if you get into trouble."


How smart does Krog need to be to come up with potential solutions to problems? Int 10? Int 8? Int 6? Should the DM adjust odds of success on these problem-solving episodes based on Krog's Intelligence score?
 

Akaiku

First Post
Or you can invent some clever excuse for how are why your Barbarian got around the problem, in which case its both good gaming and good roleplaying.

No it isn't. If a stupid character is stuck as the sole person who is supposed to work on something that is defined as being beyond him, he's supposed to lose. Pulling a Eureka Maru whenever you are railroaded is like saying "Oh, I missed? Actually, the bullet bounced off a wall and hit that rope holding that piano over your head."

The easiest way to avoid this is to not give puzzles to individual members of the party, unless they are smart, then let the whole group work together.

You know, the whole 'never split the party' thing?
 

Wolfwood2

Explorer
No it isn't. If a stupid character is stuck as the sole person who is supposed to work on something that is defined as being beyond him, he's supposed to lose. Pulling a Eureka Maru whenever you are railroaded is like saying "Oh, I missed? Actually, the bullet bounced off a wall and hit that rope holding that piano over your head."

So if a smart but physically weak character is confronted with a situation that should require great physical ability to solve and manages to work his way around it through cleverness, then that's horrible roleplaying? After all, he was defined as the guy who is supposed to lose physical challenges.
 

Voadam

Legend
All RPG rules exist solely to resolve the following core conflict in role-playing:

Player #1: "BANG! I shot you."
Player #2: "No you didn't, you missed. BANG! I shot you."


Yeah.

If we go with:

Player #1: "My supervillain gives you a riddle you can't answer."
Player #2: "No you didn't, I'm smart enough to answer all of them."

You need an adjudication.

If however it goes like this

Player #1: "Here is a riddle: what sounds like a child but crosses the sky."
Player #2: "Hmm, oh I know! The answer is the sun!"

Then you don't have that core conflict and no need for RPG rule mechanics or adjudication.
 

Celebrim

Legend
So the PCs come into town, and they need to find this guy, and learn something he knows, and steal this widget that he has hidden away. So they ride up the road and see a town in the distance, and a player starts to talk.

PLAYER: Krog says, "Hey, we no want the bad dude to know we coming. Let's hide all our battle banners and tuck away our magic and hide the elf's ears, so that bad dude won't hear any rumors about us being in town."

Later in town...

PLAYER: Krog says, "I'm not good at at picking up street rumors. Krog is will go down to mercenary hall and hang around there and see if any of his people come in an make recruitment pitches or put up posters advertising for work."

Later in town...

PLAYER: Krog says, "Good job getting hired as a butler, Lefty. How about I give you all my weapons and armor and you hide them in the house? Then I show up and you hire me as a ditch digger, like I used to back on my Dad's farm. That way I can be close by if you get into trouble."


How smart does Krog need to be to come up with potential solutions to problems? Int 10? Int 8? Int 6?

I think you are getting at the heart of the problem, if you aren't already there. To make it more explicit to those that don't get it, let me answer my own question I threw out earlier.

'Planescape: Torment' is an awarding winning and IMO well concieved computer role-playing game that is in many ways very different from the sort of experience that has come to be known as an 'RPG' on computers. For one thing, it attempts to be mostly about character development and story telling rather than simply combat. It doesn't capture the PnP experience or even try to, but it does do something very interesting instead. In 'Planescape:Torment', if you want to make a powerful fighter you dump stat strength, dexterity and constitution and instead pump wisdom, intelligence, and charisma.

Why do something so counterintuitive?

The answer is that the computer game actually attempts to model your character as having the wisdom, intelligence, and charima you assign to the character. If you choose a character with low wisdom, intelligence, and charisma it severely limits your ability to interact with the game world. Even if you as the player know what to do or say, if your character has a low enough int, wis, or charisma, the option to do or say those things won't be available. You will instead find a list of less appealing, less insightful, more insulting options to choose from, and choosing these options results in greater hazards and difficulties and less rewards for the character. The dialogue and puzzle solving options opened up by having a smarter, more observant, more charismatic character more than makes up for having a less strong, less intelligent, and less charismatic character so that in the end, the strongest possible character is one that starts the game with high wisdom and charisma. Wisdom is by far the most important stat in the game, even though you can't play as a cleric.

It would be possible to run a PnP game like this. Instead of having a player say something in character, the player simply states what he intends to do and makes a skill check. If the skill check fails, then the DM would provide to the player what the player says (or at least, what the outcome was) in the same way that the computer game provided to the player what he could say. But, just as it is questionable that 'role playing' on the computer is really role-playing, it's equally questionable whether any role-playing would actually be going on by anyone other than the DM in such a game.

If we resolved social and mental challenges in this entirely mechanistic way, then social and mental skills would be just like physical skills. Just because you were charismatic wouldn't make your character charismatic, any more than just being a good jumper would make your character a good jumper. However, if we did use such a highly mechanistic approach, the freedom of the player would be greatly constrained and much of the fun of play - the actual role-play - would disappear.

Should the DM adjust odds of success on these problem-solving episodes based on Krog's Intelligence score?

To some extent. However, the more Krog's player plays out the scenes, the less oppurtunity the DM as to use the dice to determine the outcome. Krog might theoretically be bad at information gathering, but Krog's player might be extremely good at it - to the point that the DM would have to make the game world follow the dice rather than any logically consistant and believable structure if he wanted to restrain Krog.

I should note that, lame as the attempt may be at some level, the way you animated Krog suggests Krog's limited intelligence and charisma in at least some fashion. There is therefore I think an honest attempt to play the character, in as much as - whether I as the DM throw the dice or not - if NPC's react to Krog in a negative fashion - condescendingly, ignoring him, insulting him - such actions appear to be the logical result of Krog's behavior and personality, and not merely the arbitrary results of a die throw. That isn't to say that Krog should automatically fail, but it does mean that if he does fail, the stories 'reader' will understand why without being informed what the die roll was.

The player of Krog, wanting to enter the town in a stealthy fashion, has an almost limited number of actions he can take to suggest or implement this course of action while still being in character. In the case of hiding the parties standard, Krog's player could do any of the following:

1) Hide or attack the party standard for some other stated reason than the player's real motivation. That is, Krog's motivation doesn't have to be the same as the player motivation. Krog might knock over the party banner, and put up an old rag or banner the party found earlier and say, "Me never like this ugly thing. Me much better like this Dragon banner. It more stylish and green suits Krog's good looks better."
2) Use irony or some other technique to call attention to the problem from someone else in the party. As they are approaching the town, Krog goes over and starts waving the banner around, "Here comes the League of the Lantern. Bad guys better watch out. Krog is here! We're heroes. We're dangerous. And we're coming to get you, bad man."
3) Point out the problem or idea without elaborating the plan: "Krog puts sack over head so big bad guy won't see him coming. Krog scared of bad guys spells, but if Krog sneak up and get ahold of little weasel, heh heh heh."

And hopefully, the rest of the party can play well off your lead instead of reacting to you out of character.

And on and on and on. I'm sure there are dozens of things you might do here to help the party without acting like you were the party mastermind, and while playing up your character's flaw in a relevant and interesting way.
 

Akaiku

First Post
So if a smart but physically weak character is confronted with a situation that should require great physical ability to solve and manages to work his way around it through cleverness, then that's horrible roleplaying? After all, he was defined as the guy who is supposed to lose physical challenges.

Celebrem said you are not supposed to always win as a statement of fact.

Following that, then yes it is. If you are alone and your weakness means something, you are supposed to lose, else the weakness is meaningless. Or you are Batman and can breath in space.
 

Voadam

Legend
Indeed. But, there is an even worse option available to the player in my opinion. That worse option is that he role play the Barbarian as being highly intelligent, knowledgable, clever, and so forth - even though and despite the fact that nothing about the barbarians attributes reflect this. This is neither good gaming nor good roleplay. It is poor roleplay because if the character's intelligence has any mechanical role in the game at all, it will create inconsistancies in the story. It is poor gaming because the player is trying to hog the spotlight and the glory to the detriment of others. He is attempting to subvert the fundamental intention of the rules of all RPG's and the soul reason we have rules for them at all, which is, "Thou shall not be good at everything and always win." This is the fundamental meta-rule: the rule that even preexists and informs rule #0.

I can see the argument about story inconsistency between roll effects and roleplay effects.

I don't see the hogging gaming spotlight thing. Or this fundamental intention of the rules.

Resolving "bang I hit you" is to provide an adjudication, not to make some people good at some things and bad at others.
 

Ariosto

First Post
What we are claiming, that you can't seem to grasp, is first that the skill check can be avoided, and secondly that the player can arrange it so that the result of the skill check is widely inconsistant with the proposition and that when this happens it is detrimental to the story.
"Detrimental to the story" is no consequence to me, but maybe that's just the choice of words.

Maybe you're laying too much on skill checks with this "can be avoided" worry, but I see how that can be as big a deal as the game of builds happens to be. No "skill system"? No worry!

A player can also search a room by describing what his character does. ... Or, the player might just recognize the markings without the need for a skill check.
Yeah, if that's a problem for you, then you're way too biased in favor of "roll" playing for my taste.

How is it "that the player can arrange it so that the result of the skill check is widely inconsistant with the proposition"? What are you talking about?

Do you keep players, because of character factors, from moving advantageously in combat, from choosing appropriate feats or powers, or from taking their attack rolls? Or do even the guys who are fuzzy on where they are, why they're fighting and which side they're on suddenly turn into Sun Tzu? (Okay, I realize that's par for the course for players ;)...)

Do you really keep players from making choices for their characters because of strength, dexterity or constitution scores? How often?

If you've got a double standard, then maybe you should have different points costs for proper game balance.
 
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