It's different/It's easy, therefore it's powerful

[Dross]

I think some of the problems are situational or a matter of style (only play 3.5 so can't comment on 4).

Psionics are "more balanced" if you have 4+ encounters a day, denying the supernova phenomenon. If your style has less then 4, then the discrepancy is noticeable. At least this is what I've been told, since we don't use them much.

A hybrid character can perform to the best of their abilities in more situations that a strait class character. While not as strong as the strait classed character for performing a given role the wider "usefulness" can make it seem more powerful.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Introduce a table-wide high score chart.

Most damage done in a round
Most damage done to a single foe in a round
Most damage done in a hit
Most damage done in a fight
Most damage taken in a fight
Most healing given in a fight

Simple numbers to record, and if there's no contention for one or more spots on the list (or if one character is in contention for them all, or even if one character is never in contention for any of them), then there may be something to be looked at.

Solid numbers to back up an argument only hurts if you're arguing against an idiot. And arguing against idiots is a mug's game.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Ugh. So the first DM - hybrid DM - said he was worried because he didn't know the hybrid rules and "You're one of those people who read the wizards forums on making things overpowered."

Fun.

Second DM just gave me the straight "You're a psion, so you're overpowered." Didn't matter that the rest of the table had no issues with my character or saw me spotlight hogging.



As for sorcerers, I wasn't saying that sorcerers aren't powerful. Merely that I've seen some people who think sorcerers are more powerful then wizards, and even say that they might need to be nerfed. I attest this not to the class power, but that it's easier for a new player to be outrageous with a sorcerer then with a wizard.

Or to put it another way:

Experienced players with class A go to 10.
Experienced players with class B go to 12
Newbies with class A frequently go to 7
Newbies with class B frequently go to 5
DM considers class A to be more powerful then class B.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

In the last 3.5 campaign I played the DM was convinced the warlock was overpowered since it could use all its powers at will. He formed this opinion at 1st level, where it is a very good class, but he kept it all the way up to 20th, where the cleric - who had always been played as a pure support/healer character - was dominating every battle thanks to Gate and Mass Heal while the warlock barely ever had any effect.

tl;dr - when people get an opinion that something's overpowered sometimes they'll keep it forever.

When I played a Psion I thought it was a very powerful class. Maybe more or less powerful than the 3.5 wizard, but much easier to optimize than a 3.5 wizard.

I haven't seen the 4e hybrids in play yet. They don't look overpowered, though there are some options such as Warden/TWF Ranger, that look strictly better than a straight TWF Ranger.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In the last 3.5 campaign I played the DM was convinced the warlock was overpowered since it could use all its powers at will. He formed this opinion at 1st level, where it is a very good class, but he kept it all the way up to 20th, where the cleric - who had always been played as a pure support/healer character - was dominating every battle thanks to Gate and Mass Heal while the warlock barely ever had any effect.

back when complete arcane first came out I had a simalar thing with my DM, at level 1 my warlock rocked, heck the wizard player was playing video games and sitting out encounter becuse he was 'tapped' and I was going strong all day...I though we all noticed the warlock was only soso after low level but then one day at our FLGS the DM said in front of me and the mage and achivast players "I don't think I will allow broken suff like warlocks in after this, he never runs out of spells" to witch I asked (we were high teens for levels 17 or 18) "so when was the last time these two ran out of spells?" and the responce was 5 games earlier the wizard was down to 4th level and lower spells only...then I asked "When did you ever see me end an encounter on my own?" to witch they answered "Never"

The funny part being the DM never considrered until that day that my 'eldritch blast' was 1d6 less then a rouge sneak attack, and it was byitself...no +1 flaming frost screaming keen short sword to add 4d6 more to it....

 

[Jhaelen]

Psionics are "more balanced" if you have 4+ encounters a day, denying the supernova phenomenon. If your style has less then 4, then the discrepancy is noticeable. At least this is what I've been told, since we don't use them much.

Definitely. What I'm mostly doing to reduce the effectiveness of going nova is using waves of enemies.
Also, the psion is often the one that has to deal with stuff noone else can deal with (or not as effectively), e.g. dispelling things. Since the psion is therefore prevented from using his direct attack powers most of the time, he's less likely to overshine others.

Anyway, Henry's advice is excellent. Give it a try and see for yourself if it actually turns out to be a problem in your game. Outright banning is usually neither a good idea nor required.

 

[Halivar]

I seem to recall people saying the same thing about Mystic Theurges in 3.x. Just because a character has more options doesn't mean they have increased raw, mechanical power. It simply means they have more utility. Hybrid characters have potential to synergize their abilities well, but they just as often suffer from MAD.

As for convincing your DM that psions aren't overpowered, I don't know. I suspect, from the information at hand, that your DM doesn't really understand the design philosophy behind 4E, or at least distrusts WotC's ability to implement it. Overcoming that bias is gonna be hard to do.

As an aside, there's a rogue/sorceror in the 4E game I run, and he absolutely rocks. The other kill combo I've seen is a wizard/swordmage. Not overpowered, mind you, just REALLY well constructed. In 4E, you get most of your "power" from smart, creative choices and sound tactics.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I seem to recall people saying the same thing about Mystic Theurges in 3.x. Just because a character has more options doesn't mean they have increased raw, mechanical power. It simply means they have more utility. Hybrid characters have potential to synergize their abilities well, but they just as often suffer from MAD.

Haha, yeah. All the Theurge style classes are underpowered because of how much they cripple your spellcasting in both areas. Psionic ones are overpowered because they...cripple your spellcasting in both areas? ;p

At any rate, my psion is a nomad, regarded as the weakest of the discipline specializations, and most of my combat abilities is used in utility and movement rather then save or dies or damage. In other words, my role is to make the rest of the party shine stronger. The party loves it.

As for convincing your DM that psions aren't overpowered, I don't know. I suspect, from the information at hand, that your DM doesn't really understand the design philosophy behind 4E, or at least distrusts WotC's ability to implement it. Overcoming that bias is gonna be hard to do.

The 4E DM is a bit controlling. He was getting upset at some of us knowing each other in our backstories, because he wanted us to all meet at the same time, and to control how we do it . I think with hybrids, it's the same issue I've seen with psionics, incarnum, and even Tome of Magic classes (That's right, I've heard that Truenamers are overpowered) - "the only reason you'd use a system the DM doesn't know is because you have some kind of mad exploits in mind."

As an aside, there's a rogue/sorceror in the 4E game I run, and he absolutely rocks. The other kill combo I've seen is a wizard/swordmage. Not overpowered, mind you, just REALLY well constructed. In 4E, you get most of your "power" from smart, creative choices and sound tactics.

I'm being told this now by a few people. I just wanted a quirky chaos sorcerer/rogue pirate :\. My actual in combat contribution doesn't back the cries of overpoweredness

 

[Ktulu]

I have a player in our group with a dragonborn sorcerer/barbarian, both using the str/cha builds for each given class. He has a ridiculous AC for a Bbn striker, and plenty of ranged/melee attacks..

However, he's also squishy. The hybrid lowers his overall HP enough that a few good hits trop him. And his AC is still not as good as a defenders, meaning I can get more hits on him. Add to that his lack of focusing on the Bbn big hits, or the sorcerer's multi people attacks, and you have a character that while diversified, he is not as optimal as other single-classed, but is fun for the player... And I'm pretty sure this is one of the stronger hybrid builds one can pull off.

 

[1Mac]

The funny part being the DM never considrered until that day that my 'eldritch blast' was 1d6 less then a rouge sneak attack, and it was byitself...no +1 flaming frost screaming keen short sword to add 4d6 more to it....

This is a weird block I've observed in some people, who think "magical" effects should be limited even when a "mundane" effect with similar or better results can be used at will.

Possibly this is a cause of some anxiety surrounding 4e-powers. Or possibly not!