Why was morale removed from the game?

Also, I think that the 3rd Edition Intimidate skill basically 'killed Morale and took its stuff'.

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Now, consider a 3rd edition style Morale check where you could have a build optimized for it which would have a PC able to make checks that would cause an Ancient Red Dragon to piss its self and run away unless it could roll 18 or higher and have your PC roll 3 or less to fail.

That mechanic would not have made it out of playtest.

Funny thing is, with Initimidate as they designed it, it took Morale out of the kind of setup it used to have and expressly put it INTO an opposed check kind of situation which gave the very problem you describe... and made it happily through playtests. 3.0 was particularly funny, with a 2nd level Rogue having maxed out intimidate, & bluff, with skill focus in Intimidate and an 18 Cha would be rolling 1d20+14 and trying to get higher than 10+ class level or 10+HD of an opponent to intimidate them. Automatic success against 4th level opponents!
 

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It seems strange that morale rules were too complex for DDM and had to be dropped, since morale rules have been central to table top wargaming for decades - in fact you normally had to win by breaking the opponents morale.

As well as being mechanically sound, it was more realistic than having to hack every individual down too.

I wonder whether there may have been a bit NIH syndrome which prevented those designers from taking from the best of tried and true methods?

Personally I think removing morale as a concept was a sad loss for the game. It had descriptive qualities (for instance if goblin morale was shoddy and zombie morale was unshakable, it tells you something useful about running the creature as a DM).

If there was a genuine concern that 'one die roll could end the combat prematurely', then it would have been simple to tie morale to the existing sliding scale of fear effects in 3e, so upon failing the first check they are shaken, on failing the second check they are frightened and on failing the third they are panicked. That alone would mean that low morale creatures are more likely to end up panicked in a combat which is going against them than high morale creatures (which might fail one check, but are unlikely to fail a second as well)

Cheers
 

I wouldn't want to track modifiers.
Morale Track: Bolstered, Normal, Shaken, Panicked.
Moral Checks are something like d20 + level vs level (CR, Party Level)

Morale Check Triggers:
(Replace "bloodied" with "below 50 % hit points" in 3E)
+ First time an enemy is bloodied.
+ Each time an enemy is reduced to 0 hit points.
+ More than half your enemies are below 0 hit points.
- Each time someone on your side is reduced to 0 hit points.
- More than half of your side is bloodied
- More than half of your side is below 0 hit points.
+/- You're bloodied.
+, - or +/-: Specific actions, powers, spells, special abilities and so on might trigger their own checks. For example, you could allow the character with the highest Diplomacy skill to attempt to improve the parties resolve with a standard action, or the one with the highest Intimidate skill to worsen the enemies condition.

Checks indicated with "+" are good - if you succeed the check, you improve your condition. "-" are bad, fail the check, and your condition gets worse.
+/- means that a failure worsens the condition and a success improves it.

Generally the conditions do have no specific effects, unless a special ability mentions so. Exception: Panicked generally means the side retreats. Instead of retreating, a creature can choose to be dazed (4E) or staggered (3E) at the start of his turn to make attacks.
 

Funny thing is, with Initimidate as they designed it, it took Morale out of the kind of setup it used to have and expressly put it INTO an opposed check kind of situation which gave the very problem you describe... and made it happily through playtests. 3.0 was particularly funny, with a 2nd level Rogue having maxed out intimidate, & bluff, with skill focus in Intimidate and an 18 Cha would be rolling 1d20+14 and trying to get higher than 10+ class level or 10+HD of an opponent to intimidate them. Automatic success against 4th level opponents!
Also, Grapple made it through the playtests!
 

I think that Paizo is the best for dealing with morale : each monster or NPC has a morale line in his tats block : fights to death, fights until reduced to xx% of his HPs and then flees or surrenders, avoids combat at all cost. No randomness, great help for the DM !!

This is pretty much how I think of things for encounters now... is there a breaking point? I don't like hard rules such as "at bloodied" or "at X hp's" - I just quickly think of the situation and play it out as I think it would unfold...

...I might have 4 young thieves protecting a door, told not to let anyone in. I quickly think of the motivation... is it money or fear of what happens for not following orders, and when do those things become less important than their lives. If I think, yea right, these guys are not willing to trade their lives, then they can probably be bribed... if they are fought, at least one will bail right away so I make it 5 young thieves instead of 4.

I don't like the idea of assigning roll or hard numbers to morale, but rather I imagine the "reality" of the situation and let it unfold as I think it would naturally. I might be repeating myself at this point, but the idea was that I didn't know Paizo did that (I have never played or looked into their stuff much) but it seemed close to how I do things anyway.

Important note - I don't give XP anymore, I simply level the group when I feel it is time, so there are no concerns for whether or not XP is gained from a fleeing combatant, etc.
 

Some modifier ideas:
-1 you leader is dead
-1 you are outnumbered
-1 you are outpowered (enemy side has more HD/levels than your side)
-1 enemy successfully Intimidated you
-1 others have failed a Morale check
-1 you are Shaken
-1 you are Panicked
-1 you are in Fear
+3 you are a zealot

I'm not picking on you, Janx, but this is what I mean by fiddly. That's a lot of stuff to keep track of in the middle of a fight.
 

RCFG uses morale rules, pretty much swiped wholesale from Basic Fantasy. Basic Fantasy reminded me how much I liked morale rules. Morale rules allow you to differentiate creatures on their level of bravery, which is sometimes the same as Willpower, but not always. Hard to force to budge, but quick to run when the wolves come howling? That would be your basic donkey.

These are the problems I think 3e and 4e have with morale:

(1) Combat takes so long that the opponents fleeing seems like a letdown after a long investment. Play a game where combat goes quickly, then you are not so invested in a particular outcome. Sometimes the monsters flee. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes you wish they did, and they don't. Having a half-hour to an hour battle end with your opponents running away, possibly to regroup and engage you in another half-hour to an hour battle might seem anticlimactic.

(2) In a default "DM Calls the Shots" game, encounter balance is King. By this I mean, in any form of AP, where the DM is essentially picking the challenges that the party faces, it is the responsibility of the DM to make those challenges "fair". This is where balance issues come into play, because anything that works against the DM predicting the encounter's outcome is "bad". In fact, with examination, one can see that 4e removes a level of randomness from the DM's ability to predict outcomes (over that of 3e) for exactly this purpose. If monsters always do average damage, for example, it is easier for the DM to know how much damage the PCs are likely to take. If most powers recharge at or by the end of any given encounter, it is easier for the DM to know what resources the players will have for the next encounter.

In a game where players call the shots, and determine from a plethora of options what they will do (the original D&D model), the DM simply cannot determine what will happen ahead of time. It is the job, rather, of the players to attempt to control random variables to the best of their ability. In such a game, morale is a worthwhile tool for the players, as it gives a chance of defeating an enemy -- a chance to survive -- where it might not otherwise exist.

Consider if you will, in The Hobbit, the running fight between the goblins and the dwarves. The dwarves are trying to flee; the goblins are pursuing. Time and again the dwarves have to turn and fight, goblin morale breaks, and the dwarves get a chance to make it closer to the exit. Morale rules were intended to allow for things like this to happen in-game.

The designers of 4e also wanted things like this to happen in-game. The minion rules are, in part, designed for this purpose. The goblin minions attack, the dwarves "defeat" them, and they run away. The only problem with those rules, by the RAW (in my understanding), is that the players, not the DM, determine what happens when they are "defeated". And the players are unlikely to want the goblins back to dog their steps. You can work around it, or house rule that the DM decides, but it is an inelegant solution as it stands, designed specifically to limit the occurrence of the unknown.

And, if you examine the arguments against “Save or Die” and “Save or Suck” effects, they boil down to the same thing – so-called “swinginess”….which means nothing more or less than “unpredictability”.

In a game where the players choose their objectives, and the means to achieve those objectives, there is nothing wrong with having the right spell at the right time. In a game where the DM is not imagining how the “scene” should play out, there is nothing wrong with the players easily defeating a foe that “should be” a hard fight, because the DM never determines what “should be” in the first place. In a game where encounters are quickly handled, there isn’t a problem with the wizard shining in one encounter, because the fighter may well have the opportunity to shine in the next, and both encounters take only half an hour of game time when put together.

This is true not only IME in some distantly-remembered rose-coloured nostalgia-tinged past, but is my current gaming experience as well.

It is therefore my thesis that, while WotC-D&D has come up with some interesting mechanics and ideas, it is not an improvement or an “evolution” of the previous game(s). 3.x and 4e are different games, with different design goals, and mechanics that reflect these goals. For every “problem” of previous editions resolved, they introduce a new hurdle to overcome if you wish to use these games with the design goals of those editions.

In summary, I like morale, but I don’t think it has a place in WotC-D&D. Which is okay, because there are better games out there than WotC is offering to meet my design (and play) goals.


RC
 
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It is therefore my thesis that, while WotC-D&D has come up with some interesting mechanics and ideas, it is not an improvement or an “evolution” of the previous game(s). 3.x and 4e are different games, with different design goals, and mechanics that reflect these goals. For every “problem” of previous editions resolved, they introduce a new hurdle to overcome if you wish to use these games with the design goals of those editions.

In summary, I like morale, but I don’t think it has a place in WotC-D&D. Which is okay, because there are better games out there than WotC is offering to meet my design (and play) goals.
Hey RC, could you just start signing my name at the bottom of your posts? :D

I found Morale a useful tool that made combat encounters more "dynamic," from both the foes and the PC's hirelings (the PCs had to at least give a passing nod to doing things to maintain decent morale for their hirelings, and use tactics chosen to force a morale check on foes from time to time). Sometimes I used it RAW (if I remember correctly, it was rolled on 2d10 for AD&D, not 1d20, so the morale levels were on a curve), sometimes I made "ad hoc" rulings based on the circumstances and the relevant Morale levels of the NPC participants. It was even useful for what would be called "Intimidate" attempts outside of combat by PCs before there was a systemic skills system in place to handle it.
 

When there was a morale system back in the day, after trying it for a while, I gave up on it. It would do strange things to fights that were supposed to be big climaxes or fights that were just supposed to be minor annoyances. So I'd end up ignoring it and instead use morale based entirely on situation and plot. In a way you could say I was secretly giving circumstance modifiers to every creature's morale score, but at the level I was doing it, really, it was beyond tinkering the system and instead just plain ignoring it. So, I don't really feel like the game lost anything by removing it. Anyway, just my experiences with it.
 

Which is kind of silly. "Look, we killed one of them! Hooray! Now let's run away!"

It's a misunderstanding of the rules. You check morale with the side's first death in combat. Obviously, if a monster is first to die, you check the monsters' morale. If it's the characters' side that had the first death, you're checking morale for their npc allies, cronies, and hangers-on, which all pre-2e versions of D&D assumed were regularly present.
 

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