Raven Crowking
First Post
Just suggesting that, perhaps, he was not feigning ignorance.
Happy Holidays!
RC
Why was "knock back" never a combat maneuver in the game?
- Thread starter harpy
- Start date
Just suggesting that, perhaps, he was not feigning ignorance.
Happy Holidays!
RC
Not feigning ignorance, as I noted in my OP I'd acknowledged that there were feats for this and monster abilities that allowed it.
What I'm wondering is why the 3E designers decided that this cinematic move which everyone has seen done zillions of times in movies by ordinary folk wasn't a standard combat maneuver.
As an extension, there is no "throw" or "toss" type of maneuver that is also pretty common in movies. There is no way for a medium size creature to pick up a small sized creature and toss them across the room, or at least not in a nice little tidy subsystem wrapped up with a little bow for the players to consider.
If only the designers had gone with a more dynamic flow of movement and positioning when they laid down the keel of the system.
What I'm wondering is why the 3E designers decided that this cinematic move which everyone has seen done zillions of times in movies by ordinary folk wasn't a standard combat maneuver.
As an extension, there is no "throw" or "toss" type of maneuver that is also pretty common in movies. There is no way for a medium size creature to pick up a small sized creature and toss them across the room, or at least not in a nice little tidy subsystem wrapped up with a little bow for the players to consider.
If only the designers had gone with a more dynamic flow of movement and positioning when they laid down the keel of the system.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Again, Tome of Battle gives a lot of that. The designers just weren't as focused on cinematic combat as 4E designers were from the start. It wasn't until later into the edition where they decided to add that to the rules. 4E just took that trend and instituted it into the core rules. But it is already in 3E, many options for knock backs and throws to both use and bounce houserules off of.
On the topic of throws, Defensive Throw was available fairly early into 3.5 in C.Warrior.
On the topic of throws, Defensive Throw was available fairly early into 3.5 in C.Warrior.
Well, 3E doesn't tend to focus on individual combat moves at all; hit points are an abstraction, as are hit rolls and damage. It also doesn't detail sword blows or dodges, or any other combat moves at that level of detail (with the types of exceptions you noted). Generally speaking, it's simply hit rolls, and attrition of hit points, relying on you to provide the flavour.
A game which detailed individual moves to that extent would be a very different game to 3E.
DaveyJones
Explorer
again this is another feat. you can do some of this stuff without some feats. you just do it at a penalty.
catsclaw227
First Post
Sounds neat, but at a -12 to BAB, that means my 16th level fighter would be BAB 4 to do this? Also, how do you determine if a weapon bonus gets added? If the maneuver uses the weapon or not? In that case, I would never try the bone-in-mouth maneuver because any weapon or melee type bonuses I would get would be negated.
Raven Crowking
First Post
Let your fighter use skill ranks to buy back maneuver costs.
Thus, a fighter could have 8 ranks in knock back, allowing him to use the maneuver at a cost of 4 points of BAB.
You determine if a weapon bonus is added by determining if the weapon is being used. "I try to kick the mook in the groin, so that he loses his attacks until he makes a Fortitude or Willpower save" is unarmed combat. "I disarm the mook with my sword" uses the weapon.
RCFG has these skills built in, and a gentler AC curve than 3e, so you will have to find the balance......but it is there. If you use the weapon skill rules instead of BAB, as I did in my late 3e days, it works very, very well. And the monsters can do it, too.......
RC
I don't know if anyone here can tell you why it wasn't originally included. That seems like a question only a 3e designer can answer. My guess is that since a lot of the suggestions here are feats, it was probably deemed to powerful for just anyone to do. Just like shooting two arrows at a time is a popular trope, and yet not just any schmoe can pick up a bow and do it.
If you want to implement something like this in your game, try adding it onto Bull Rush. If I remember my 3.5 (and it has been awhile, sorry) then for each increment that you beat the opposed check by, another 5 feet was added to the push. Just houserule a trade, one of those 5 foot squares can be prone. So if you beat the check by 10, you can knock them flying and on their back.
Of course, prone in 3.5 is serious. Include something like this at your own peril! You don't want monsters doing it right back at you. . .
Jay
If you want to implement something like this in your game, try adding it onto Bull Rush. If I remember my 3.5 (and it has been awhile, sorry) then for each increment that you beat the opposed check by, another 5 feet was added to the push. Just houserule a trade, one of those 5 foot squares can be prone. So if you beat the check by 10, you can knock them flying and on their back.
Of course, prone in 3.5 is serious. Include something like this at your own peril! You don't want monsters doing it right back at you. . .
Jay
Celebrim
Legend
My guess is that because by default, the 3E game wasn't designed to be 'cinematic'. Movie knockback isn't terribly realistic, or really, not realistic at all. The design goal of 3E seemed to be 'casual realism', by which I mean that although the system was abstract those abstractions were supposed to represent actions which were superficially realistic at least at the level of casual inspection. Cinematic tropes, supers tropes, or wuxia tropes weren't really part of the core rules, so my guess is that the 3e designers would have considered knockback to be something that should be optional depending on how you wanted your game to depart from standard.
I kinda appreciate that, as 'casual realism' was what I was going for. I would for the most part put 'knockback' in the category of a psionic or ki or other supernatural power, although I can concieve of a feat specific to two-handed bashing weapons that might allow it in a limited way at the 'casual realism level'
On the other hand, I found this to be a really inexplicable oversight and quickly worked up a subsystem for this. The only reason I can think of for why they left this out is, based on my work with it, throwing something is actually something that is hard to get 'right' with a simple rule since it depends on some fairly complex issues (reach of thrower, weight of thing being throw, size and strength of the thrower). I'm not fully happy with my subsystem either, but because it takes to much math to get there. It might be just that no designer found an elegant enough solution to consider it publish worthy.
Raven Crowking
First Post
Tossing is an Unarmed Combat normal manoeuvre in RCFG.
o Normal Manoeuvres: These manoeuvres either cause a –4 penalty to some aspect of the defender’s Actions until cleared with an Action, or cause some special effect such as disarmament, forcing the character to move up to 10 feet, tripping the opponent, and so on.
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