[SPELLS and MAGIC] Design Discussion

[Wulf Ratbane]

Quick reply:

I'm not sure Death Ward is a problem, but it IS an absolute, and provided for that reason. What I perhaps should have said above is that IF Death Ward is a problem, it is only so mechanically, and not because it poses a threat to verisimilitude.

 

[Deekin]

Your goals seem solid, and I would love to help out with this.

That Said, There is thread on this on the old wizards forum that might be of help

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/20958753/Heated_debate!_BrokenPowerful_spells_3.5
'

Edit: Spell that needs reworking: TRUE SEEING. It shuts down an Entire School of magic if you have it.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Your goals seem solid, and I would love to help out with this.

That Said, There is thread on this on the old wizards forum that might be of help

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/20958753/Heated_debate!_BrokenPowerful_spells_3.5
'

Edit: Spell that needs reworking: TRUE SEEING. It shuts down an Entire School of magic if you have it.

Great thread; bookmarked. Exactly what I want to see more of.

(Yes, yes... grammar.)

 

[BryonD]

Exactly what I want to see more of, bitch.

All better?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Exactly what I want to see more of, bitches.

 

[Elodan]

Count me as in favor of heightened and diminished versions of spells; favorite part of Arcana Evolved.

 

[BryonD]

Curtail the power of lower level spells by implementing caster level caps

TRUE SEEING. It shuts down an Entire School of magic if you have it.

There seems to be some synergy here.
I personally don't have a problem with the core idea of True Seeing being ROCK to Illusion's SCISSORS. Particularly considering it is a 5th level cleric spell. Taking out a 6th level spell with a 5th level spell that is intended to do just that, is cool. And a 7th level spell, frankly and imho, is also completely fair. 8th level? Well, pretty far off in subjective land of course, but for me, I'd think an 8th level spell might reasonably get a fair shake at shrugging off the 5th level counter. And 9th level should have a very solid chance of ignoring it.

So perhaps some sort of opposed check is in order. Just as a starting point I'm thinking opposed caster level checks with a modifier of +5 / spell level going to the higher level spell.

I think this could be a very simple back pocket rule for every case in which two spells come into conflict. Just having this kind of mechanic in place might facilitate creative spellcasting. For example, can you dispell/destroy a wall of ice with a fireball? Ok, but it an opposed CL check, with a -5 penalty. Or block a fireball with a wall of ice? How far you could go with this would depend on creativity and what the DM can accept. I think trying to flame out a wall of fire with a fireball (like putting out a burning oil well) would be clever, but using a fly to divert a fireball harmlessly away wouldn't cut it for me.

Obviously some scenarios require ready actions and may suffer lack of implementation (as counterspell often does), but others offer chances to face off against on-going effects and could be quite dynamic.

The whole thing begs to create a "wizards duel" system even.

Imagine dueling illusions in a battle whose outcome had real significance. You are a mighty warrior and you watch as sweat pours down the face of you wizard buddy while his illusionary knight goes toe-to-toe with the evil overlord's illusionary demon.

In the case of something like True Seeing, a +15 bonus is applied to appropriate checks.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

There seems to be some synergy here.
I personally don't have a problem with the core idea of True Seeing being ROCK to Illusion's SCISSORS. Particularly considering it is a 5th level cleric spell. Taking out a 6th level spell with a 5th level spell that is intended to do just that, is cool. And a 7th level spell, frankly and imho, is also completely fair. 8th level? Well, pretty far off in subjective land of course, but for me, I'd think an 8th level spell might reasonably get a fair shake at shrugging off the 5th level counter. And 9th level should have a very solid chance of ignoring it.

Globe of Invulnerability is a good model, I think, although obviously there are some functional differences. (And Abjuration is just generally better at trumping every other school, at least defensively.)

I like to think that Divination and Illusion should trump each other, with the higher level spell simply winning out. There are quite a few such opposing relationships already evident in the SRD spell list.

So perhaps some sort of opposed check is in order. Just as a starting point I'm thinking opposed caster level checks with a modifier of +5 / spell level going to the higher level spell.

If I can make it automatic and yet balanced, I think I'd prefer that.

I think this could be a very simple back pocket rule for every case in which two spells come into conflict. Just having this kind of mechanic in place might facilitate creative spellcasting. For example, can you dispell/destroy a wall of ice with a fireball? Ok, but it an opposed CL check, with a -5 penalty. Or block a fireball with a wall of ice? How far you could go with this would depend on creativity and what the DM can accept. I think trying to flame out a wall of fire with a fireball (like putting out a burning oil well) would be clever, but using a fly to divert a fireball harmlessly away wouldn't cut it for me.

Hmm... I guess I need to decide how much "new mechanic" stuff should go into the Spells book and how much should go in the Players' Options book. I think I prefer to keep "SRD Fixes" in one kind of book and "Creative Expansions" in another. Basically trying to keep the Core stuff sequestered.

 

[BryonD]

Hmm... I guess I need to decide how much "new mechanic" stuff should go into the Spells book and how much should go in the Players' Options book.

I had not caught on to the distinction here.
I guess you should take every comment I offer and insert:

"For the player's options book...."

There are certainly times when static A trumps B is appropriate.
(for GoI it is a 6th level spell that only effects 4th or lower. So you give it the same +15 as true seeing and now even an 11th level caster will stop 4th level spells from a 20th level caster 97.5% of the time. The spell still works as advertised)
But any time it works, dynamic conflicts are cool.

It even offers some new design space. A metamagic feat being low hanging fruit, but other feats, spells, whatever could be cool if done right.

Are you really not at all intrigued by the wizard's duel and spell conflict idea?

 

[booboo]

what about utility of spells vs. sells of the same level, like at first level you have on one side Magic Missile, Sleep, Ray of Enfeeblement the other side you have Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch the one group of spells seem to have much more utility than the other or is it just me but at every level it seems to happen quite often.