Playing Paragon Tier again this past weekend brought me back to teh old "Magic Items" issue that really started rearing its head in 3E. They are very well balanced these days yet many of them lack flavor. Part of the power gaming vibe that really was pushed in 3E made the static bonuses the "it" thing. I miss my Frost Brand from 1E/2E. Sure, it was only amazing situationally when you got to high level, but it was really a cool thing to have. Deck of Many Things, Mist Tent, etc. were all cool (and some essentially numerically useless) but were chaotic or not the best use of a "slot" and were all but done away with in most play.
D&D 4E What Doesn't 4E Do Well?
- Thread starter FireLance
- Start date
Fanaelialae
Legend
One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned, which 4e doesn't do well IMO is easy homebrew class design. There are various reasons for this, a lot of them quite good ones, but it requires quite a bit more care and effort to produce a well balanced new class.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I started out thinking I needed custom classes to represent some of my favorite archetypes ...but now with hybrids, multiclassing and complete re-flavoring on the option list, I really don't have much need for it.
Mad Hamish
First Post
I'm not sure that any class based system makes it easy to create a balanced new class.
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
Well, its certainly more difficult to create a new class, whether ballanced or not.
In 3rd ed., it was pretty easy to create a class by choosing your attack bonus progression, save progression, starting proficiencies, skills/level, spell selection (if any), and any class features and/or additional leveling benefits (such as more feets or additional uses of class features). Not too hard to take a palladin, drop his class features, give him sneak attack and access to the shadow domain (along with creating a spell creation chart), add some custom class features and voila - you have a new class, the Shadow knight. Ballancing said creation was another issue, but at least the creation itself was relatively easy.
For 4th ed., with each class having its own specific powers - not so much. Basically, you need to create 3-4 powers per level, and paragon paths... so, nothing to be embarked on lightly.
For myself, however, that's not really a problem. Aside from the custom cleric system in 2nd ed. (which tended to nerf rather than buff your character), I've never really had any real desire to muck around with classes.
Additionally, given that the fluff and the cruch are somewhat divorced in 4th ed., reskinning is far easier than ever before. Combined with the multiclassing and hybridding rules, one can get a pretty broad range of character concepts with the existing classes.
In 3rd ed., it was pretty easy to create a class by choosing your attack bonus progression, save progression, starting proficiencies, skills/level, spell selection (if any), and any class features and/or additional leveling benefits (such as more feets or additional uses of class features). Not too hard to take a palladin, drop his class features, give him sneak attack and access to the shadow domain (along with creating a spell creation chart), add some custom class features and voila - you have a new class, the Shadow knight. Ballancing said creation was another issue, but at least the creation itself was relatively easy.
For 4th ed., with each class having its own specific powers - not so much. Basically, you need to create 3-4 powers per level, and paragon paths... so, nothing to be embarked on lightly.
For myself, however, that's not really a problem. Aside from the custom cleric system in 2nd ed. (which tended to nerf rather than buff your character), I've never really had any real desire to muck around with classes.
Additionally, given that the fluff and the cruch are somewhat divorced in 4th ed., reskinning is far easier than ever before. Combined with the multiclassing and hybridding rules, one can get a pretty broad range of character concepts with the existing classes.
I consider this wishful thinking. To me, the fact that the missing masterwork armor was added to AV illustrates that they never bothered to run the numbers during the PHBI days at all. Ditto for how numerous, strong and stackable the to hit and defenses feats are. No design plan, just design mistakes and correction attempts.
Zaran
Adventurer
Korjik and I were discussing the hybrid rules last night. The system looks balanced but we both believe that alot of the flavor will be removed from both classes.
To get back on the subject. 4e doesn't do finding info you need well. Without access to DDI or noting page numbers for everything on your character sheet that you might need you are SOL when you want to look up a particular ritual or magical item. With new books coming out every month I feel that the books should have a better indexing system. I remember the other night, I looked through 4 books before I found the Create Campsite ritual and I couldn't even tell you where I found it. Does anyone know if there is an I-phone application that has such an index?
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Yeah.
My impression is that they had hired a bunch of math-dudes to make a balanced system, then the math-dudes left (shortly before the system was finalized), then the system got changed due to playtest feedback, then finally the system got released. From then on it's been a constant struggle for WotC to release stuff which isn't broken. They no longer have the math-dudes, only their notes.
There clearly was a plan for 4e, and they've clearly made attempts to adhere to it, but they seem to have lost faith in some of their own designs.
Cheers, -- N
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Ummm for me the hybrid is its own thing that I flavor up.... What it usually isn't is somebody who spent a bit of time doing x and a bit of time doing y.
I build a Chaos Knight this time maybe as a Sorcerer/Paladin. I create an appropriate flavor then pick the classes. Why does the character have intimidation.. well maybe Chaos Knights have often have awesome auras and intimidation isnt something they train in just a symptom of the roiling waves of psychic miasma that follows the focus of their ire. Maybe I re-energize paladins divine abilities as energies of dissolution (aka -acidic lightning). We allow re-energizing at the time you take a power or retrain it.
Another time I feel a Chaos Knight might include Druid to get shape shifting and I skin the animal effects as demons... the idea being I change forms because the chaos has left my body unstable.
A sword mage teleport effects are reality getting holes torn through it not by my blade but by the chaos that swirls around him.
Maybe.
My impression is that they did very little playtesting at the paragon tier and almost none at all on the epic tier.
Probably due to time constraints they focused on what would be most important for a new edition: Making sure heroic tier worked well. And I think they really succeeded there. The books have been a bit rushed over all as the original skill challenge rules showed.
And there's definitely been a reason they advised people to start new campaigns instead of trying to convert them to 4e...
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