Hero System Vs. Mutants & Masterminds. Which is the better super-hero game?

[Green Knight]

Hello, all. Thought I'd stop by and ask this question to see what the general consensus was. My gaming group has decided to start a superhero campaign using Hero System, although Mutants & Masterminds is potentially on the table, which would be my preference. Not because I know for a fact that the rules are better, but because 1) It'll be easier to pick up, as the rules are based off of D20, and 2) I bought the book years ago and it'd be nice to get some use out of it at long last. :b

But all around, I have zero experience with either one. I've always been interested in trying out Hero System, though (and in fact once owned Hero System 5th Edition, but it was another game system I bought and never got to play, and ended up selling it), so there's that. Although I'm not exactly jumping for joy at the prospect of having to buy the rulebooks, again. Especially since I now hear that that base rules are split into two $40 books! So I'm wondering what folks who've played both systems think of them? Which one do you think makes for the better and more fun game? Did you have a better experience in a superhero campaign with Hero System or Mutants & Masterminds? I'd appreciate any and all feedback. Thanks.

 

[Quartz]

I GMed Hero in 5th ed days. I concentrated on Fantasy Hero. How much do you appreciate versatility? How much do you enjoy maths? You can do pretty much anything in Hero, but you'll need to put in some serious time. A custom beginning Hero character takes about as much time as a high-level multiclassed D&D3 character. If you do choose Hero, give your players pre-generated character sheets.

 

[Crothian]

M&M will be way more popular here because of its roots.

 

[JorrJorr]

As a GM of both MnM and HERO, I would have to say MnM is probably better out of the box for supers as much as I love HERO. Both games can do supers well and comes down to Player and GM preference. I know a number of ex-HERO players who left the crunchy world of HERO for MnM and not looked back. At times I do have issues with HERO but have been playing or running it since '82 (in the form of Champions) that I'll overlook it's issues and I'm blinded by her beauty

The problem with comparing the two is the premise behind the books are different. MnM is fundamentally a core book of rules centered around the supers genre (like Champions started out back in ~1980). HERO on the other hand are a set of rules to let you build the game that you want to run (toolkitting). Now MnM is starting to look like HERO did back in the late 80's early 90's where a number of people were starting to use MnM for other genres and styles of campaigns as can be seen in the supplements Warlocks and Warriors and Manga and Mecha. When 4th edition of Champions/HERO came out, that was the split between using the rules as a toolkit to build campaigns (HERO System) and different books to support genre (e.g. Champions Genre book). Although to be fair both rules and genre were put together as one book called the "Big Blue Book" Champions book and other genres had their own book like FantasyHERO and StarHERO. By 5th edition the split was total. The core books only had a small chapter on different genres and there was no assumption in the rules that a specific genre was being used.

Ultimately I voted for MnM assuming you wanted supers right out of the box. HERO can do that but you have to put more of the work into it if you don't want to spend money for supplements. There is a significant amount of conversion material on the web though that can give you an idea of how to build various comic and other media characters as evidenced by Surbrook's website full of HERO writeups. Also you can visit the HERO forums which is very active and helpful. You can read over how everyone tries to come up with how to implement a particular power or get help if you are having problems coming up with a power build. You can also find additional resources there as well.

Considering that you had the 5e HERO book and didn't spend the time to try to use it, you may be better off using MnM. If you want to try HERO 6e though without the large by in, I would highly recommend getting the HERO System Basic Rulebook. The Basic book has most of the powers and rules you'll need to do good job of running a supers game. It's only $20 and you can do ~90% of what the two base books do (Book 1: character creation and Book 2: Combat and Adventuring).

From a mechanical side MnM uses a d20 rollover. The difference rolled over determines the degree of effect and the same mechanic is used for skills.

HERO uses d6's. Skill/Attack resolution in HERO is 3d6 roll under some target number with power effects rolling a number of d6's usually. For example a typical energy blast (Human Torch doing a Fire Blas) may do 10d6. The total is added to determine the STUN done. Using the same dice BODY is determined by adding +0 for 1's, +1 for 2-5, and +2 for 6's. This is the problem that a number of the ex-HERO players have is the dual damage calculation. Yes it takes extra time, but once you get used to it I don't find that it's that much and there's ways to batch it so it's counted faster (e.g. for a 10d6 you know you start with 10 and -1 for zero's and +1 for sixes).

I've good and bad experiences with both games. Like any RPG it utimately comes down to GM and Players having fun and both games are rewarding in there own fashion. Currently I'm running HERO (Champions) and DnD 3.5 (Legacy of Fire AP) campaigns.

Whatever game you choose I hope you and your players have fun.

 

[Elric]

I haven't played HERO to compare the two, but here's a thread on M&M's official forums on this topic: The Atomic Think Tank • View topic - Champions or M&M. Obviously, it's not a random sample of the people who have played both systems; you should expect it to lean towards M&M.

 

[Thanee]

The correct answer to your poll is... both!

So I'm wondering what folks who've played both systems think of them?

HERO offers more versatility and flexibility. It is unsurpassed in its ability to create anything.

M&M is close, but not quite as flexible. It might be a bit easier to learn, though, especially when you are not quite as number-crunchy as HERO requires in some areas, or have extensive d20 experience already.

But HERO isn't really hard to learn, either.

Which one do you think makes for the better and more fun game?

As I said. Both. They both work very well.

Bye
Thanee

 

[pawsplay]

It depends. What do you like?

Hero System is, overall, a better system with more options, clearer resolution, and capable of scaling a lot better in various ways. OTOH, M&M is a lot quicker to prep a game for, and its luck point system is second to none. So I prefer Hero in theory, but in practice, I'm just as likely to say, "Let's dish out some M&M."

 

[Greg K]

Both are really good. I do prefer M&M. 90%+ of the flexability and less work. Plus, for some reason, I don't like roll under systems or that Hero 6e removed elemental controls rather than just stress the GM to enforce their original intention/purpose and not allow player to abuse it w/ kryptonian powers, werewolf powers, etc.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I've yet to try HERO, but I know for sure M&M is an excellent game. I would say it's infinitely flexible, actually, so that could be hard to top. However, I might be surprised by the other contender, when the time comes.

GURPS is also extremely flexible, IME. Hm, same goes for EABA. But anyway. . .

edit --- If you do decide to play M&M, I would strongly suggest using the second edition rules. With HERO, it might not matter so much (?)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

HERO offers more versatility and flexibility. It is unsurpassed in its ability to create anything.

M&M is close, but not quite as flexible. It might be a bit easier to learn, though, especially when you are not quite as number-crunchy as HERO requires in some areas, or have extensive d20 experience already.

But HERO isn't really hard to learn, either.

QFT.

In the interests of full disclosure, I've been a Champions/HERO player since it came out (the 3rd system I learned, after D&D and Traveller), and it remains my favorite system, bar none. I just bought 6Ed Sunday, but haven't had a chance to take a close look at it. (Sorry to see the ECs are gone, though.)

I've run both HERO and M&M, and I have to say that it is a simpler game and MUCH easier for the D20 set to learn...but also easy for them to pick apart.

My most recent M&M campaign fell apart in part due to the fact that M&M doesn't have a straightforward and intuitive way of having a speedster do an Autofire punch or series of move-by attacks over a wide area- classic speedster schtick.

There are ways to do it, yes, but they all look like extreme workarounds for the fact that M&M eschews iterative attacks in general. The suggestions floated here and at Atomic Think tank were not only dissatisfying to me as a GM who had run HERO, but also to the player designing the speedster.

HERO, though.. the Autofire modifier looks exactly like what you'd expect- "Iterative attacks, Mr. Rico! Zillions of them!"

As if that weren't bad enough, 1 other player in the group managed to find other aspects of the game's mechanics that were not handled as well as in HERO: what, exactly, does it mean when you hit a character with an attack that reduces their mental stats radically and rapidly? (And that's not hard or expensive to do in M&M.)

Don't get me wrong, though...M&M is my 3rd favorite system of all time, behind only HERO (#1) and 3.XEd D&D (#2). If/when it hits its 3rd edition, you can be sure I'll be getting my copy.