[SPELLS and MAGIC] Design Discussion

[BryonD]

We went to a great deal of trouble to grok

I think it was worth it.
In particular, when you get both sides grudgingly conceding key points, then you have probably improved the understanding (or even the grokking*) all around.



* - My spell check says "grokking" has two "k"s . Color me amused that it cares.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Very true. Most spiders only have a +11 climb skill, so taking 10 only allows them to walk on walls with a Climb DC of 21 or less. Rereading the descriptions of the various wall types, that's not nearly enough. Which is a flaw in the design of both the environment, the spider, and how climb speeds work.
Possible fixes include a larger bonus, a higher automatic DC than 0, or other combination of factors.

So rather than ribbing the authors of 3E for not having the math right here, I'll applaud them for spending their time on other things.

I would wager that most DMs would be surprised to discover that the rules don't actually allow spiders to walk on walls (or ceilings).

Frankly I am a little disgusted to discover this, because knowing this earlier would certainly have influenced the way the Climb skill was printed. For example, a simple fix would be to allow spiders to ignore Climb check modifiers; then set the DCs for different kinds of walls appropriately so that spiders could walk on walls (and ceilings) that other climbers could not.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Quick comment regarding "meaningless" checks.

I don't think there's a problem with a 3rd level, invisible wizard or rogue having an invulnerable edge on any spotter, such that the modifiers involved make the roll equally meaningless for either the rogue or the wizard, regardless of who is the spell target.

But at mid to high levels, as other sorts of abilities and modifiers start to pile up on the spotter's side of the equation, I certainly think it's a worthwhile goal to reward the skilled character for his investment in Stealth. The invisibility (or spider climb) certainly provides a huge magical edge, but it will certainly matter whether the invisible sneaker is a wizard relying solely on invisibility or a rogue enjoying both invisibility and a huge skill bonus.

 

[BryonD]

But at mid to high levels, as other sorts of abilities and modifiers start to pile up on the spotter's side of the equation, I certainly think it's a worthwhile goal to reward the skilled character for his investment in Stealth. The invisibility (or spider climb) certainly provides a huge magical edge, but it will certainly matter whether the invisible sneaker is a wizard relying solely on invisibility or a rogue enjoying both invisibility and a huge skill bonus.

This I accept. I'll even one up you and offer that DC 10 + Stealth / 20+ Stealth and 20+Stealth / 30+ Stealth could very reasonably replace 20/30 and 30/40.

It is easy to create scenarios for still needing some stealth with invisibility.
For simply moving on a surface via spider climb, that should be be constant. Though getting hit by a goblin's arrow should be less an impediment than getting hit by a storm giant's arrow. I don't think that any damage results in a surface DC check is as good as perhaps: any damages results in a climb check with DC = surface +1 per 3 points damage.

 

[Rabulias]

I would wager that most DMs would be surprised to discover that the rules don't actually allow spiders to walk on walls (or ceilings).

I sure was.

What about other insects/arachnids: Ants, Centipedes, Beetles, Flies, Cockroaches, Wasps, etc.? I have been allowing them effective spider-climbing ability as well, based on real-world critters; many of them don't have Climb skill in RAW!

Spiders should have the best deal on climbing, but should other creepy crawlers get a similar benefit?

 

[BryonD]

Part of the problem here is that vermin don't get skill points, so you are stuck with hand waved racial bonuses.
I'm not so sure that this problem merits a detailed solution, a hand wave probably gets the job done just fine. But it can have some odd implications.

And, I suspect that hardly anyone even bothers to consider it. These creatures just walk on walls as needed, no rule required.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I sure was.

Welcome to our forums-- stick around!

Spiders should have the best deal on climbing, but should other creepy crawlers get a similar benefit?

Part of the problem here is that vermin don't get skill points, so you are stuck with hand waved racial bonuses.

There's nothing wrong with racial bonuses as an effective way to grant skills to a type of creature. I never consider myself "stuck with" a racial bonus.

The problem isn't really racial bonuses per se; you could more appropriately blame it on the connection between INT and skill points-- so that non- and animal-intelligence creatures that are obviously highly skilled at some tasks (stealth, perception, climbing, swimming) fall behind in this humano-centric mechanic.

I'm not so sure that this problem merits a detailed solution, a hand wave probably gets the job done just fine.

Until you try to knock them off the wall; then you have intersections with the PC mechanics and some sort of... unity of mechanics... would be appreciated.

 

[BryonD]

There's nothing wrong with racial bonuses as an effective way to grant skills to a type of creature. I never consider myself "stuck with" a racial bonus.

If you only have one option, then you are "stuck" with that option. As I said, I don't think it is a problem that merits a solution.

The problem isn't really racial bonuses per se; you could more appropriately blame it on the connection between INT and skill points-- so that non- and animal-intelligence creatures that are obviously highly skilled at some tasks (stealth, perception, climbing, swimming) fall behind in this humano-centric mechanic.

That is what I'm saying. Adding a racial bonus to a monkey is still fine, but you also have some skill points to work with. It is the no skill points for no INT that makes you "stuck" with assigning a value. Maybe animals and vermin should use Wis for skills the way undead have commonly been adapted to use CHR for HP. Again, probably not a worthwhile change, but it covers the disconnect.

Until you try to knock them off the wall; then you have intersections with the PC mechanics and some sort of... unity of mechanics... would be appreciated.

And in this case I strongly agree that the term "unity of mechanics" applies quite well. This is quite unlike the case of comparing Spider Climb to a rogue's skill.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Maybe skill points gained should be disconnected from INT altogether. I know it causes at least as much frustration among players as it does designers.
The problem becomes mechanical support for Intelligence without the skill points per level angle. This gets tricky, and is something I'm still working on (though some of Celebrim's house rules may fix this; I still need to get him to send me copies). The RP side is already covered but requires a DM and players that enforce that sort of thing.


As for vermin (and other monster types), if you want to give them skill points to work with, simply give them 2 (or 4 or however many) skill points per hit die. Without attaching INT to their gain (it's not 2 + Int, it's just 2) you increase their skills per level dramatically by removing that intelligence penalty.

(I'm reminded of the first KOTOR video game. If you played a warrior class [Soldier or Jedi Guardian] you gained 0 + Int skill points per level, minimum 1. Unless you really wanted those extra skill points, you were better off going with a 10 Int because then you could put your ability points where they were useful instead of wasting them on a 12 or 13.)

 

[booboo]

Vermin really are not worth our time or attention unless the problem is systemic.