nasty epic level encounters

[StreamOfTheSky]

The problem with making your own epic spells isn't just that several are stupidly broken, and it's way too easy to cheese huge spellcraft modifiers. It's also the disparity between them. Hellball is utterly terrible. I probably absolutely wouldn't want it as a level 9 spell, let alone epic with massive spellcraft DC. On the other hand, you can use epic spellcasting to add +50 (or whatever number you can make the spellcraft check for) to your casting stat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The problem with making your own epic spells isn't just that several are stupidly broken, and it's way too easy to cheese huge spellcraft modifiers. It's also the disparity between them. Hellball is utterly terrible. I probably absolutely wouldn't want it as a level 9 spell, let alone epic with massive spellcraft DC. On the other hand, you can use epic spellcasting to add +50 (or whatever number you can make the spellcraft check for) to your casting stat.

Is that really much of an issue now with the stat boost spells having a shortened duration?

With the duration at a hour/level it's easy for an epic spellcaster to keep a stat boost up 24/7 (and this also means they have the boosted stat when casting it) but with 3.5 and minute/level stat buffs I don't see the problem. You can't keep it up all the time, it's a battle buff spell. That means you're taking a big DC hit to get the casting time down. You're using an epic spell to get a substantially improved chance of your spells going through for one battle. Is that a big problem??

 

[Dandu]

With the duration at a hour/level it's easy for an epic spellcaster to keep a stat boost up 24/7 (and this also means they have the boosted stat when casting it) but with 3.5 and minute/level stat buffs I don't see the problem. You can't keep it up all the time, it's a battle buff spell. That means you're taking a big DC hit to get the casting time down. You're using an epic spell to get a substantially improved chance of your spells going through for one battle. Is that a big problem??

The Epic Spell we're talking about here is created with the Fortify seed and lasts for 20 hours, ie, one whole day, without further modification. Doubling the duration adds +2 to the DC to make it, and making it permanent multiplies the DC by 5... which would be a drawback if there weren't so many ways to lower the DC. (Hint, get minions)

 

[Brace Cormaeril]

You really need to acquaint yourself with CO.

You're probably right on that point. I've only done the most cursory review of Character Optimization forums. I have found that frequently these optimizations are purely mathematical exercises, and that many Optimizers treated them as such. YMMV. I did independantly develop the "Little Raid Raiding Hood", fwiw. However, on the topic of Epic Spellcasting, I must disagree. Taking a look at the vaunted "+50 to casting stat spell": I don't have any books with me, as I'm out on business and responding via Blackberry, but isn't that a a Spellcraft DC of 27+2(bonus applied to relevant stat), with a gp cost of 9,000gp x Spellcraft DC of the developed spell, taking time in days to develop equal to (Total Cost of Development)/50,000 ? So, for your +50 stat booster, you are looking at a DC 127, without any duration increase, you are looking at 1,143,000 gp and 23 days to develop. Where is any character going to get this kind of money? I can't recall the extrapolated table for wealth by character level, but with a 50% cap on expenditure on a single item v. Total wealth, a character would have to be, what, 50th level to possess so much money? RAW, even a Metropolis+ sized city can only outlay 100k gp per day. If your campaign allows for a single PC to drain the total resources of an entire metropolis for nearly half a month, then rock on... Not gonna happen IMC... You may choose to mitigate these costs by adding ritual spellcasters to contribute spell slots to mitigate costs. This is a failing enterprise unless the casters in question are casting the spells for free. Paying the NPC caster fees every 1-2 days will quickly outpace an initial development cost. If these "minions" are Leadership based minions, rock on. The Ritual casters are now free, but to get the Spellcraft DC into reasonable numbers, fiscally speaking, would require the coordination of, what, 30-50 3rd level wizards contributing there highest level spell slot every two days? Cool, but if *that* were one of my players' masterplan... I would be disappointed at best, overcome by laughter at worst.
The Hellball example above is a great example of "Epic Spell Development is an art". Use the rules as they are written, and you have a dynamic and balanced (as balanced as 3.5 gets, lol) system for the highest levels of play. Turn any aspect of this game into a mathematical exercise, and your game will eventually fail before "The Crunch Conundrum".

 

[Dandu]

However, on the topic of Epic Spellcasting, I must disagree. Taking a look at the vaunted "+50 to casting stat spell": I don't have any books with me, as I'm out on business and responding via Blackberry, but isn't that a a Spellcraft DC of 27+2(bonus applied to relevant stat), with a gp cost of 9,000gp x Spellcraft DC of the developed spell, taking time in days to develop equal to (Total Cost of Development)/50,000 ? So, for your +50 stat booster, you are looking at a DC 127, without any duration increase, you are looking at 1,143,000 gp and 23 days to develop. Where is any character going to get this kind of money?

I Wish I could answer that question. (Hint: both shapechange and planar binding do wonders in the area of getting creatures that can generate infinite wealth loops. It can also be done with other spells such as Wall of Iron and items such as Candles of Invocation.)

I can't recall the extrapolated table for wealth by character level, but with a 50% cap on expenditure on a single item v. Total wealth, a character would have to be, what, 50th level to possess so much money?

Spell development isn't an item.

Not gonna happen IMC... You may choose to mitigate these costs by adding ritual spellcasters to contribute spell slots to mitigate costs. This is a failing enterprise unless the casters in question are casting the spells for free.

Rod of Excellent Spellcasting + Simalicrum. Or Shapechange into/Planar Binding a Mirror Mephit. Or Leadership. Or...

 

[kyrand]

I always thought the epic spell-crafting rules were fairly underpowered, until I was actually playing a wizard and started looking into every way I could boost my Spellcraft... Even without skill bonus items or focus feats, I could get quite a decent number. Moment or prescience helped a lot, as I recall --- Once during the next hour/level, get an insight bonus = caster level (max 25) on a single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw. Alternatively, you can apply the insight bonus to your AC against a single attack (even if flatfooted).

Of course, now that I re-read it, I'm not sure the Spellcraft is an "opposed" check, so I don't know if my trick works...

 

[Runestar]

I found that boosting your spellcraft check was actually counter-intuitive to epic spellcasting.

What actually happened was that we were finding all sorts of ways to lower the final DC to as low as possible, so we end up paying less for researching the spell. It made no difference even if we could muster a check of +100 - I am not going to pay 900,000gp for it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Epic Spell we're talking about here is created with the Fortify seed and lasts for 20 hours, ie, one whole day, without further modification. Doubling the duration adds +2 to the DC to make it, and making it permanent multiplies the DC by 5... which would be a drawback if there weren't so many ways to lower the DC. (Hint, get minions)

What you are missing is that that Fortify seed is based around the stat buff spells. (Most of the seeds are explicitly based around existing spells.)

Going from 3.0 to 3.5 that spell it's based on went from hour/level to minute/level. Shouldn't that mean the effect of the Fortify seed also drops from 20 hours to 20 minutes?

 

[Dandu]

What you are missing is that that Fortify seed is based around the stat buff spells. (Most of the seeds are explicitly based around existing spells.)

Going from 3.0 to 3.5 that spell it's based on went from hour/level to minute/level. Shouldn't that mean the effect of the Fortify seed also drops from 20 hours to 20 minutes?

No.

The material in the SRD is 3.5 material.

 

[meltinbradley]

WOW, sorry, I didnt receive any emails saying there were replies to this thread.
Asha'man- I was more interested in sharing ideas, or hearing what others have done in their campaigns as I stated in my first message.
But I guess I should say I am more interested in traps or vicious non epic spells. I mean there are so many spells. If used with other spells they can be very effective or we can talk about magical items. For example combining magical items with class abilities that make for really effective combos. Im more into the little things then just throwing a ultra powerful monster.
You could use weaker NPCs to kill a party if done right. You have a trap set for the party. The NPCs know most of the parties abilities, they set up forbiddance to keep PCs from jaunting, or leaving the area, Im looking for things like that. Swords that anchor spell casters who can jaunt at will are but some examples.
I wanted to leave it open ended, because if i liked any ideas I could just tweek the encounter to my group. I am not so interested in monster because there are so many monsters. And I could always through some epic monster to battle them. I was referring to things a little less obvious like spells or traps.
The group currently is in a situation where they may not keep the characters their using now so, its hard for me to say who will be in the group.
As of right now its a evil group. A assassin, a monk, a wizard, and a bard like character who specializes in crowd control and can make things nornally immune to fear be frightened. But this will probably change for when I intend to get really nasty with them.