D&D 4E I admit it. I don't "get" 4e psionics.

[MrMyth]

As far as spamming goes, doesn't this reflect 3.5 psionics pretty accurately? You could have a handful of powers, and you would always be able to use your power points towards whatever was most effective in the situation?

Sortof. The issue in 3.5 was that you could really nova with power points, and burn almost the entirety of your daily resources for some completely insane stuff in a very short period of time - similar to the caster issue, but cranked up to a new level.

That's not an issue here. Since power points are an encounter resource, and much more limited in how much they can be invested in powers, you don't get novas. Instead, as you say, you get to use that resource in the most efficient fashion for any given situation. Unfortunately, the problem here is that at high levels, spamming the same low-level at-will is often the most effective answer, and far better than spending more points to augment a higher level power to the max.

 

[chitzk0i]

Yeah, battle mind has a similar issue, only sometimes the epic ones are worse than the heroic tier. At least

Psion has a handful of holes like this too.

Well, the battlemind actually has the most reasons to upgrade: Lightning Rush (7), Brutal Barrage (13), Might of the Ogre (23), and Mind of Mirrors at 27 all beat the pants off level 1 at-wills, mostly because they address your (almost) complete lack of stickiness.

I'm surprised such things slipped through, you'd think they would have noticed in playtesting and just swapped the levels around a bit. Maybe the problem is that they designed the level 1 ones to be balanced compared to other at-wills (at wills tend to be quite good and scale well) and didn't put enough thought into the higher level ones. Because the level 1 guy feels pretty okay next to a non-psionic PC.

I'm very curious about the D&D department's internal playtesting procedures, because there's all kind of things that make me say, "Who thought this was a good idea?"

 

[Dice4Hire]

On the character builder, each Augment is its own card. So no worries on font sizes, there.-O

Well, without having encounters, I guess they won't have too many power cards.....

That helps, and I can see how they would have to do that, but man, the printed Psionic power card box is gonna be massive. That would be about triple the number of cards of most other classes. I can see players who are not so serious about the rules not touching psionics with a ten foot pole.

 

[KarinsDad]

I see the same issues that other see here, but I also see other aspects that bug me.

A Psion gets Send Thoughts. The only advantage of this is range 20, otherwise, it's once per encounter.

A Kalashtar gets Telepathy 5. Day in and day out telepathy.

To me, it should be the other way around. If either is allowed to do it at will, it should be the Psion, not the Kalashtar. I'm not quite sure why WotC made Kalashtar so telepathically capable. He wasn't that telepathically capable in 3.5.

Actually, neither class nor race should get Telepathy at will, just like other races or classes do not get Teleport or Invisibility or any other "old school DND higher level miscellaneous spells" at will.


I also think that the spammable aspect is huge.

Take a 3rd level Psion. He uses Mind Thrust Augment 1 up to 4 times. If he needs a 10 to hit and hits the first time (55% chance) and with a Cha mod of +3, he suddenly hits 70% of the time. At higher level, this will become more than 70% on later encounter attacks (75% at level 8, 80% at level 14, 90% at level 21 with some Epic Destinies, etc.)

Like the nerf for Righteous Brand, this will be nerfed. So why the heck did they allow it in? It's a bit better than Righteous Brand because it allows everyone to get a bonus vs. Will (by lowering Will) as opposed to one ally getting the bonus vs. melee attack rolls.

But mostly it's great because it can set up future Daily or other vs. Will powers for the Psion himself. The Psion hits on round one. He is now at +4 for his vs. Will Daily on round two. He again hits on round three. He is now at +4 for a different vs. Will Augment on round four, etc.

I think that although the power point concept was interesting, the implementation will be fraught with errata.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I've been playing an epic level ardent for a while, and I have noticed that I tend to spam Energizing Strike a lot. Perhaps it's just the way my DM sets up encounters, but it's just too good not to use it fully augmented when I can.

All in all I like the psionics system, although I think I'd prefer it if psionics users had the standard AED power set up and could augment all their powers. However, I also notice that many low-level powers aren't worth switching out for higher ones. These are relatively easy to fix, though, and I think they will be updated in the months to come.

I'm looking forward to seeing a psionic striker that utilizes augmentations. Perhaps a blaster of some sort.

 

[Obryn]

I've been playing an epic level ardent for a while, and I have noticed that I tend to spam Energizing Strike a lot. Perhaps it's just the way my DM sets up encounters, but it's just too good not to use it fully augmented when I can.

And seriously, for 2 PP it's a bargain. I'm thinking the mental calculation is, "Well, I can do this three times, or augment one of my epic-level At-Wills once..."

All in all I like the psionics system, although I think I'd prefer it if psionics users had the standard AED power set up and could augment all their powers. However, I also notice that many low-level powers aren't worth switching out for higher ones. These are relatively easy to fix, though, and I think they will be updated in the months to come.

I was thinking this, too... Use the AED setup, and give just a handful of PP per encounter that you can use to upgrade your At-Will or Encounter powers a few times.

-O

 

[MrBeens]

Oh, thank goodness... When I was messing around on Character Builder, that's more or less exactly what I found, too when I was making a Level 15 Ardent. My Level 1 powers were either better or more universally useful than the available higher-level ones. Here goes....

Level 1: Demoralizing Strike. Quite an excellent power; a -2 to all Defenses is huge. Augment 1 is great with the right party. Augment 2 is insane - a burst with a scaling defense penalty.
Level 13: The most comparable is Victorious Urging, but it's generally worse. One of your allies gets the effective +2 to attack the target. Augment 1 is situational. Augment 4 is, IMO, strictly worse and more expensive than the Augment 2 of Demoralizing Strike.

Level 1: Energizing Strike. At-Will, it's solid and will remain useful until high levels with the scaling Temp HPs. Augment 1 is a quick, low-resource way to revive a fallen companion. Augment 2 is effectively the Cleric's Healing Strike, sans mark.
Level 7: Maybe Rewarding Strike? It's theoretically surgeless healing, but it's conditional on another ally hitting and thus IMO less useful in general. Augment 1 is very situational. Augment 2 gives a whole lot of healing potential, but again that healing is conditional on your allies hitting. I'm not sure I'd switch, frankly.

Level 1: Focusing Strike. A saving throw is always handy. Augment 1 is situational. Augment 2 is basically Saves for Everyone.
Level 13: Finally a strict improvement in the form of Revelatory Strike, along with flexibility. (I probably wouldn't have taken Focusing Strike in the first place, though, but YMMV.)

Ire Strike: Basically, it's psionic Commander's Strike with a Vuln 2 All rider effect. Solid. Augment 1, situational. Augment 2 is very beefy, with ally movement, extra damage, and a scaling vulnerability rider.
Level 7: Mindlink Strike. Unaugmented is basically the same, but instead of vulnerability, you can shift. I'd rather have the vuln, but YMMV. Augment 1 is probably not worth it, unless you have PPs to burn. Augment 2 is a burst, but I think it's more situational and less useful than Ire Strike, overall.

Level 1: Psionic Shield. Um, honestly, I wouldn't take this one. But in this case, the Level 13 Revelatory Strike is strictly better.

I think that's my beef, honestly. Until epic levels, it looks like the Psionic At-Wills don't really get better.

-O

Yeah, this is my prioblem with the augmentable classes too.

The other problem even if you do find a higher level power that is slightly better than a level 1 at will, you are still better off keeping the lower level one as it is cheaper.
It's better to use a 2 point level 1 power threee times than it is to use a 6 point level 27 one once.

Couple this with the spam issue others have brought up and the fact that you have less options than other classes you have boring classes that pretty much do the same thing for 30 levels.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, this is my prioblem with the augmentable classes too.

The other problem even if you do find a higher level power that is slightly better than a level 1 at will, you are still better off keeping the lower level one as it is cheaper.
It's better to use a 2 point level 1 power threee times than it is to use a 6 point level 27 one once.

Couple this with the spam issue others have brought up and the fact that you have less options than other classes you have boring classes that pretty much do the same thing for 30 levels.

Ehhhh, see I think this logic may be a bit flawed. Action Economy is a big deal. Those low level powers may give you more bang per PP expended, but that doesn't mean they necessarily give you more bang per ACTION taken. You'll get your PPs back at the end of the encounter. An action lost is an action lost, it ain't never coming back.

I've only seen one psion in action for a couple weeks worth of play at heroic tier so I really can't say I know how this issue plays out. The character I DMed for was using nothing but level 1 powers at level 8 still, but he certainly didn't seem OP, just constantly using the same 2 powers and now and then he'd whip out a daily. Interesting character but we'll definitely have to see how much fun it is in the long run.

 

[Samurai]

A houserule I had made long ago was that classes do not exchange their lower level powers for higher level ones, they simply get more powers. This gives them greater versatility, and a little more big firepower before having to resort to spamming the at-wills.

For Psionic characters, that means they'll eventually have a lot of At-Will powers to choose from, and if they already have a better/cheaper low level version of the power, they won't have to trade it away for a higher level At Will. Instead, they should pick an At Will that does something different from the powers they already have to give them greater versatility, and then they can use either of them, as needed.

 

[Kinneus]

Quick question... I'm sure this is answered somewhere, but I can't find where. If you're playing a human and choose ardent, psion or battlemind, how is your extra at-will treated? Is it still augmentable? If so, seems like humans would be the go-to races for these classes, even if only because spamming four powers is slightly less boring than spamming three.