• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

GNS - does one preclude another?

Yeah, I find that study fundamentally flawed in that it did not ask or include anything about most of the normal simulation elements including game world, exploration, etc. As it doesn't ask about any "S" elements, they don't show up in their survey.

How do you know what the survey asked? The article doesn't list any of the questions; it says they asked hundreds of questions, then crunched the data looking for patterns and this was what they found.

If you have a list of the survey questions, I'd be quite interested to read it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

From what I can tell, the Big Model just takes GNS and adds a few more layers of flummery. It's still the same basic concept.
I would suggest reading the two Forge threads that LostSoul linked to upthread if you haven't. They do a pretty good job of illustrating exactly why those "layers of flummery" are integral to the model as a whole and why their separation from the GNS portion is important.
 

I find GNS considerably less useful than the original GDS theory which Ron Edwards derived it from.

Basically, Edwards had a very specific preference for a very specific kind of Dramatist play. He labeled this Narrativist, but then he found himself with a whole bunch of other Dramatist playstyles that didn't fit into the N box of his new GNS. So he took all of those playstyles and kind of shoved them into Simulationist play, which he had never understood all that well in the first place.

Basically, GDS has a very specific and useful definition of its three axes. And it largely constrained itself to the description of the rationale used for any individual decision point. In terms of each decision point, one is forced to make a trade-off when it comes to the rationale used. Overall playstyles are described as an aggregate of decision points.

Edwards did put important emphasis on the impact of rule system on playstyle. Although his purity-driven style of system design results, by its very nature, in games of specifically narrow appeal. Edwards may not like the "incoherence" of classic D&D, for example, but it is specifically its broad mechanical flexibility that made the game appeal successfully to many different gamers.

Both theories tend to overvalue purity of theory at the expense of practical compromise at the gaming table. Although, IME, the GDS theory is an immensely useful terminology for discussing and reaching those compromises.

I think this is exactly right, and well said. Must give XP. :)
 

Unless you're an English or lit major, Narrativism probably literally has no meaning at all to you, since "dramatic premise" is very specifically a literary thing as opposed to a "What happened in the story" kind of thing. I imagine that a lot of people think Narr is bogus or whatnot because they don't buy into the idea of a literary premise, period. And that's totally cool, I mean, if you aren't interested in literary premise, and aren't interested in how it could apply to roleplaying games... what bloody reason is there for you to even care about Narr, unless it's to get mad about it? I just don't get it.

"Dramatic Premise" isn't exactly standard terminology for lit crit, from my experience. It's usually called a "theme" rather than a "premise", ain't it?

Admittedly, I never took any upper level lit courses, but I'd be surprised if the profs are that inconsistent in the terminology they use.
 

"Dramatic Premise" isn't exactly standard terminology for lit crit, from my experience. It's usually called a "theme" rather than a "premise", ain't it?

Admittedly, I never took any upper level lit courses, but I'd be surprised if the profs are that inconsistent in the terminology they use.

"Premise" is not much of a construct, more of a categorical term for discussing literature in the wild. Premise is basically setting + characters + acts. Eg: The premise of Hamlet is a young nobleman returning home to Denmark to discover his mother has married his uncle, who has probably killed his father. Obviously, you can began extracting a theme from a premise, but a lot of it is what Edwards would call the bass-ackwards term "ephemera", i.e. stuff that happens.
 

"Premise" is not much of a construct, more of a categorical term for discussing literature in the wild. Premise is basically setting + characters + acts. Eg: The premise of Hamlet is a young nobleman returning home to Denmark to discover his mother has married his uncle, who has probably killed his father. Obviously, you can began extracting a theme from a premise, but a lot of it is what Edwards would call the bass-ackwards term "ephemera", i.e. stuff that happens.

Is that how Edwards uses "premise?" From the forge-influenced games I have it seems like "premise" is used more like a thesis statement, or a hypothesis to be tested, a dramatic moral quandary phrased as questions like "what would you give up for ultimate power?", which in Hamlet would be something like. . .




Why the heck are we talking about this? I think it's flawed. You think it's flawed. I guess I think it's so flawed that it's counterproductive to use this language, so I argue against it when I get the chance.
 

Is that how Edwards uses "premise?" From the forge-influenced games I have it seems like "premise" is used more like a thesis statement, or a hypothesis to be tested, a dramatic moral quandary phrased as questions like "what would you give up for ultimate power?", which in Hamlet would be something like. . .

Yeah, that's right. But you're also right that for normal gamers this stuff probably is not worth discussing.
 

Yeah, that's right. But you're also right that for normal gamers this stuff probably is not worth discussing.

GNS, the Big something or other really aren't worth discussing. Figures like WotC 'data' are amusing but meaningless. However, all gamers have an interest in the science of games and how we get more games, better games, more players, better fun.

Quite why the Forge exists to chit chat about essentially nothing and gamers don't discuss the facts/ science is baffling. It's like 100,000 posts about the vital importance of delivering napkins to people with no food to eat.
 

Many of the forge articles that form the foundation of GNS theory have more than a little taste of "my game is better than yours" to them, so I find it hard to take them seriously. The old GDS is much more impartial.
 


Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top