Return of the DonkeyHorse!

[Ourph]

I don't get the hatred of these fiddly bits. I get not really using them -- I don't really use them -- but I don't get how their presence is somehow a philosophical anathema upon to the edition

To me it's not so much a philosophical anathema as an aesthetic rough spot that I'd like to polish off just for my own personal satisfaction. I'm not arguing that killing off the skill bonus provided by Thieves Tools would make the game inherently better. I'm arguing that killing off that aspect would make the game a very tiny bit better to me.

 

[I'm A Banana]

To me it's not so much a philosophical anathema as an aesthetic rough spot that I'd like to polish off just for my own personal satisfaction. I'm not arguing that killing off the skill bonus provided by Thieves Tools would make the game inherently better. I'm arguing that killing off that aspect would make the game a very tiny bit better to me.

I'm with you in that it would make the game smoother for me.

I guess where we differ is just that I don't care if there's an aesthetic rough spot I don't like, if some people do like it. As long as that's all it is -- a minor inelegance -- I really don't have the slightest bit of problem with it being in the game.

I'm totally willing to make the trade-off of aesthetic rough spots for a more inclusive game.

 

[Hussar]

And yet there is more than just the Thieves' tools in the CB, so while you may not like it, and can totally ignore these items, they certainly don't go against the philosophy as far as the developers are concerned... see below for more examples of these items that are in the CB.



So are all of these items mentioned in their relevant skill write ups? Because they all are in the CB and all give bonuses with skills...

Camouflaged Clothing
Climber's Kit
Crowbar
Disguise Kit
Footpads
Hunter's Kit
Inquisitive's Kit

Honestly, I believe that's a mistake as well. Just because it's in the PHB doesn't mean it's not a mistake. Trying to tie concrete numbers to abstracts just causes all sorts of problems. An entire book of "Crowbars" that give bonuses to skills is just asking for power creep. It's, IMO, a very bad idea.

And yet, here we have people who want to add MORE to the pile. This was exactly what caused so many problems at 3e tables. Fifteen bazillion different bonuses that people could fold, spindle and mold into Pun Pun.

No thank you. You can keep that.

 

[Imaro]

Honestly, I believe that's a mistake as well. Just because it's in the PHB doesn't mean it's not a mistake. Trying to tie concrete numbers to abstracts just causes all sorts of problems. An entire book of "Crowbars" that give bonuses to skills is just asking for power creep. It's, IMO, a very bad idea.

And yet, here we have people who want to add MORE to the pile. This was exactly what caused so many problems at 3e tables. Fifteen bazillion different bonuses that people could fold, spindle and mold into Pun Pun.

No thank you. You can keep that.

So then don't use them....I mean do you have the same problem with Background bonuses to skills, or feat bonuses to skills, or racial bonuses to skills... I mean I feel like the days of 4e maintaining a reasonable levelof disparity between skilled characters and unskilled characters has already gone out the window. The disparity between skills of two different characters of the same level can already get to enormous levels.

Let me ask another question, and it's based on some assumptions that may or may not be true (so please correct me if they are false)... I'm going to assume that since you're against items such as these, you don't alllow them in your game... right? If so has your 4e game broken or become unplayable since no one used these items? If not I fail to see how the introduction of other items would in any way affect your game if you chose to disallow them.

 

[Obryn]

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Air jordan(1-24)shoes $33


Nike shox(R4,NZ,OZ,TL1,TL2,TL3) $35
Handbags(Coach lv fendi d&g) $35
Tshirts (Polo ,ed hardy,lacoste) $16
Jean(True Religion,ed hardy,coogi) $30
Sunglasses(Oakey,coach,gucci,Armaini) $16
New era cap $15

Bikini (Ed hardy,polo) $25

I don't think counterfeit Air Jordans or bikinis or Nike shox are medieval-appropriate gear, but way to think outside the box and start up an equipment list for us!

-O

 

[coyote6]

I don't think counterfeit Air Jordans or bikinis or Nike shox are medieval-appropriate gear, but way to think outside the box and start up an equipment list for us!

Clearly, Air Jordans give a +2 bonus to Jumping or Athletic checks, but what's the bonus for a masterwork bikini?

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Honestly, I believe that's a mistake as well. Just because it's in the PHB doesn't mean it's not a mistake. Trying to tie concrete numbers to abstracts just causes all sorts of problems. An entire book of "Crowbars" that give bonuses to skills is just asking for power creep. It's, IMO, a very bad idea.

And yet, here we have people who want to add MORE to the pile. This was exactly what caused so many problems at 3e tables. Fifteen bazillion different bonuses that people could fold, spindle and mold into Pun Pun.

No thank you. You can keep that.

This, and a couple other threads, have encouraged me to delve into moving my game closer to the 'simulation' side in regards to world building.... I want to be able to tell the players what is available for purchase or trade in the local village, I want thier choices to have some meaning in the game, and I want to challenge them with the limitations of encumbrance.
Having a tool that grants a bonus to a skill would be desired... leading to the bartering skill challenge and the question of who carries all that stuff. It may also lead to adventuring to the closest town as the village doesn't have that equipment handy.

Somehow I think a bunch of mundane equipment that grant a non-stackable bonus of 1 or 2 points will not endanger the balance of the game and provide hooks for adventurs and challenges. I also think it makes the game world much more 'real' {at least for me}.

I have no desire to turn mundane equipment, and thereby shopping/shops/villages, into a bland fluff.

As such, a book of mundane stuff with some tech level guidelines and some world building guidelines would get my hard earned cash.

YMMV, and all that jazz

 

[El Mahdi]

deleted

 

[Nifft]

This, and a couple other threads, have encouraged me to delve into moving my game closer to the 'simulation' side in regards to world building.... I want to be able to tell the players what is available for purchase or trade in the local village, I want thier choices to have some meaning in the game, and I want to challenge them with the limitations of encumbrance.
Having a tool that grants a bonus to a skill would be desired... leading to the bartering skill challenge and the question of who carries all that stuff. It may also lead to adventuring to the closest town as the village doesn't have that equipment handy.

This is not the kind of thing I want in my games, but I've said that already, so instead let's look at how this stuff could be built into a very game-ist game like 4e:

- Come up with a unifying class for this type of stuff, so it's clear what stacks and what does not.

- Make it flexible to handle clever on-the-spot ideas as well as the mundane.

- Somehow try to encourage teamwork and RP, because those are more fun (to me).


Here's what comes to mind: Circumstantial Advantage. Just like 4e's Combat Advantage, it's a thing you can get for yourself by having the right tool for the job -- or by "flanking" a problem (see below). Also just like the other CA, this CA would give you a +2 bonus.

Rules stuff:

- Circumstantial Advantage can come from tools. A tool can only grant CA once per encounter.

- Circumstantial Advantage can come from allies. During a Skill Challenge, replace the problematic "Aid Another" mechanic with CA, and Skill Challenges become better balanced.

- Circumstantial Advantage may come from some powers. A Utility power which grants you Combat Advantage might be able to grant you Circumstantial Advantage, subject to DM's approval -- Perfect Feint might make sense when you're trying to escape from guards, but it's not going to do much against a mechanical lock.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hussar]

So then don't use them....I mean do you have the same problem with Background bonuses to skills, or feat bonuses to skills, or racial bonuses to skills... I mean I feel like the days of 4e maintaining a reasonable levelof disparity between skilled characters and unskilled characters has already gone out the window. The disparity between skills of two different characters of the same level can already get to enormous levels.

Let me ask another question, and it's based on some assumptions that may or may not be true (so please correct me if they are false)... I'm going to assume that since you're against items such as these, you don't alllow them in your game... right? If so has your 4e game broken or become unplayable since no one used these items? If not I fail to see how the introduction of other items would in any way affect your game if you chose to disallow them.

Taking this in reverse order. I'm not actually DMing 4e, so, none of this is up to me. My system of choice currently isn't even D&D, so, I cannot answer your question specific to breaking D&D. But, in my system of choice (Sufficiently Advanced) all items are included in your basic stats. If you have a capability score of X, then any item with a capability of X or lower is simply presumed to be part of your character in some way.

So, in the thieves tools case, I would simply presume that these things are abstracted and thus included in the base skill. One time when my character tries to open a lock, he has the perfect tool, the next time, he opens it through his amazing skill, the third time, he hits it with his elbow, Fonzie style, and it pops open. That's entirely up to the player which version he wants, or if he wants all of them that's fine too.

Racial bonuses, background bonuses - yeah, the list is getting pretty lengthy. I don't use background bonuses in the campaign I play in, and so far that doesn't seem to be presumed by designers. But, I don't want to see it continue to balloon outwards. Like you say, there's already problems with skill disparity.

Adding on bonuses for equipment is just adding to the problem.