New adventure path from ENP

[Blackbrrd]

I must say that I don't have the feeling of running a conversion. Most of all because my group focuses on the roleplaying, and partly because WotBS is so awesome.

What WotBS does right is focus on the role playing, the characters and the non-player characters. It really is a setting that takes you in and it's a lot of fun both as a DM and a player.

I think the most important part with WotBS is that it isn't a dungeon crawl.

Something I didn't see before running the module is that it's really easy to play some of the more interesting NPC's in the module. They are so believable and interesting that they in themselves lift the module above the usual cut. Focus on this and I think you can put it in nearly any setting.

Secondarily is the issue mentioned by Tricky110974 - it's a conversion and it's noticeable. At least the first module. Some of the skill challenges feel a bit clunky and so does some of the encounters. As mentioned above - it really doesn't matter. Focus on the story, the NPC's and make it believable. Fixing encounters is minor business compared to fixing inconsistencies, confusing NPC's and unbelievable plots.

 

[RangerWickett]

Tricky, what do you think of as 4e's strengths?

One thing we were considering (though it's probably too weird to pull off well) would be to have certain adventures be modular, so like you could play 2, 3, or 4 in any order. 4e makes it easy enough to scale challenges to party level by just subtracting or adding some numbers that we thought it might be feasible. Then again, we're not sure whether it's worth doing as anything other than a mere gimmick.

For the 3.5 WotBS, one of my goals was to fit in every rule I could, starting with counterspelling and ending with aging modifiers. I regret a bit that I never found a good excuse to make "multiple abjurations in the same area start to buzz" part of one adventure.

 

[TrickyUK]

RangerWickett - For me the strengths are the races and classes. They are now so many combinations that I feel I can create characters for any occasion. You can also create a world where all the races have homes but don't feel like they are already predetermined. The 'points of light' aspect also allows a campaign to build on exploration and discovery.

The cosmology feels right and I would like to see that used a little more - adventures in the Feywild or even the Far Realm. I've just read PH3 and was inspired by the Living Gate history. Not sure how much can be used directly (due to copyright, and all) but the concept was there.

The DMG has loads of material, companion characters, monster themes, hazards, etc. that I think should be exploited. This would certainly help me when running a published adventure as I would be able to understand some of the way the rules had been used to create the encounters, and that would help if I needed to adjust an encounter.

That said, I don't think that 4e is perfect. I still don't like skill challenges and magic items seemed to have lost some of their appeal. But I keep on trying to find ways to make these things into positives. Wish lists are OK but I would like to see a random (or predetermined) treasure list to which I would amalgamate with wish lists.

I agree with Blackbrrd that WotBS has a great story and great characters and that the focus on roleplaying does hide the conversion element. That said, I was running the journey to Seaquen recently and felt that the need for a skill challenge was not necessary. In the 3.5 version to the PCs just journeyed with the option of some possible encounters if the DM felt they were appropriate. So I just ran the journey as I would have in 3.5 and used the encounters that I thought the PCs would enjoy. This is where I think that 'conversion' became a little more apparent.

I would also like to see a more comprehensive campaign guide. I know that WotBS introduces the campaign through the adventures, and this is great for the PCs, but I would like to know more as a DM so that I am better prepared for questions from my players. This wouldn't necessarily need to be hundreds of pages, and could just give pointers where the DM should feel free to fill in the blanks, but having a sight of the bigger picture helps the players believe the world is thought out beyond their current battle map.

Starting to ramble now, so will pause. But I will add that I am working on my own campaign for running after WotBS and so I am going through a process which is addressing the above myself.

 

[Morrus]

RangerWickett - For me the strengths are the races and classes. They are now so many combinations that I feel I can create characters for any occasion.

I don't think there are nearly as many as there were for 3E.

I would also like to see a more comprehensive campaign guide. I know that WotBS introduces the campaign through the adventures, and this is great for the PCs, but I would like to know more as a DM so that I am better prepared for questions from my players. This wouldn't necessarily need to be hundreds of pages, and could just give pointers where the DM should feel free to fill in the blanks, but having a sight of the bigger picture helps the players believe the world is thought out beyond their current battle map.

You know there are two free guides, right? The Player's Guide and the Campaign Guide?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Random Idea:

If you go into the epic tiers, and we don't want a repeat of the "Stop Evil" campaign, think of instituting a fundamental change to the world. Something the players need to be Epic Tier at. Maybe something the players have a free choice what to do with it, but giving them a clear path to how they could achieve it.

I remember there was a Wizards of the Coast article online about the "Zeitgeist". That was an interesting concept. (It was 3E).

Maybe there are several groups hunting for an Epic McGuffin. The one that reaches it can do great things. It can change the world in a very profound way. What it changes it to, is entirely up to the person(s) getting there. There are limits. But becoming a god is just a side-effect of it, which can be easily avoided if desired so.

The players stop the BBEG around the turn Paragon/Epic tier. But they know where to get the McGuffin. Sure, it will be a difficult task and a lot is left to be done - but think of the power? Think of the good you could do!

And now, the party might get unusual foes. They might not just have to fight Demons and Devils and Astral Pirates. They might have to awaken a slumbering Primordial to get access to the McGuffin. Some of the gods themselves might challenge them, fearing they could abuse their power. This could be a great thing for "greyness". Sure, it says lawful good on the tin, but can Pelor, Bahamut and Moradin really be sure this Paladin is wise enough to not abuse the power of the McGuffin. Maybe they should better send their minions to kill you. Or at least test your character and worthiness, as they tell you afterwards, "haha, it was all just a test, we didn't really want to kill you. You have passed the test of the 7 Principles of Wisdom. Mr Paladin, please take away that Bastard Sword from my throat, thankyouverymuch."

 

[Morrus]

I kinda like the moral ambiguity of having to awaken ancient evil to achieve something, then have to deal with the ramifications of that later. The fiorst aprt of the campaign being a mission to do what most campaigns are a mission to prevent.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I kinda like the moral ambiguity of having to awaken ancient evil to achieve something, then have to deal with the ramifications of that later. The first part of the campaign being a mission to do what most campaigns are a mission to prevent.

Yeah, I like it when the players really have to think about what they are doing. If it's all black and white there won't be any discussion between the characters and that is so boring. I like it when the players get all involved because of lesser-of-two-evils problem.

Instead of the regular get-the-artifact-that-will-save-the-world or stop-the-great-evil plots, what about a world that is going down the drain and it will get worse and worse if nobody does something. The players have to put it back together again piece by piece while forces, both good and evil are in the way.

 

[Daern]

That would be great! Sort of like how in the Deathdealer adventure I'm running now the mission is to unleash said Dealer of Death and even though its a one-shot side game I'm tripping out on what that will do to the campaign world. In this case I think one of the players is going to become the Deathdealer and we'll have a big party fight... but I'm thinking it will become sort of a "vignette" that will be then referenced back in my WotBS campaign.
That is an intriguing idea. Now that I think of it, making each adventure be vignette separated by time and distance but unified in theme or metaplot might be a great way to make a modular set of modules...
Anyways, I'm sure you guys will come up with something pretty cool. Cheers

 

[humble minion]

In very very general terms, there's only really a limited palette of plot options (unless you start looking at tailoring plots to PCs individual motivations, which is bordering on impossible when it comes to published adventures).

Prevent the rise of a (new or old) evil.
Defeat an established evil.
When the world undergoes changes in some way, ensure that good, rather than evil, profits.

It's going to be very hard to avoid using some variant of these - and therefore, there'll be echoes of a hundred other D&D campaigns in pretty much whatever the next AP is. The details are what bring the spark.

I'd still love to do something with vampires. It staggers me that no APs I'm aware of have really pushed that barrow hard yet. I know D&D historically hasn't been great at emulating vampire mythology (stakes through the heart etc) but nobody even seems to have tried.

Oriental would be fun, but possibly limited too in appeal for a full 1-30 AP. Unless you could somehow include a major oriental component in a more conventional setting, perhaps as a plot point? Those huge Chinese trade fleets of the 1400s could be a useful inspiration - scale them up by a factor of 10 (it's fantasy, after all!), then land them on the coast of Generic European Setting, where they start setting up a colony and all the established powers (which may include regular D&D bad guys like vampires, thieves guilds, dragons etc) start to get antsy about protecting their turf. Clash of cultures and loyalties ensues. Only problem with this sort of game structure is how to handle parties with different origins and/or loyalties.

 

[renau1g]

As long as the vampire's chests don't sparkle that could work... *effing twilight*