Send In The Clowns… (or, Converting the Oddballs)

[Cleon]

Added to Homebrews.

I think they should have a swim speed (a slow one) as well, since they are turtles, after all. The young are listed as aquatic, so they aren't landbound tortoises.

Funny you should say that, in my original draft I gave them a 20 ft. swim speed but then noticed the "at which point they stop swimming (their wings don’t function well when wet)" so took it out.

Maybe give them a swim speed with a special quality that they must wait for their wings to dry before they can fly?

Does that mean they can't fly when its raining?

So what feats do you fancy for them.

Flyby Attack would appear a good fit.

Wingover? I suspect they should be at least as agile in the air as a Hippogriff.

Not sure what to do for the third feat.

 

[Shade]

Swim 20 ft. and flavor text about the "can't fly while wet" work for me.

Turtle feats:
Snapping Turtle (Stormwrack): Improved Natural Armor (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
Warturtle (Dragon 343): Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
Archelon: Great Fortitude, Toughness (x4)

Giant Dragonfly has Flyby Attack as a bonus feat.

So, Flyby Attack sounds good. Wingover probably works, too. I think I favor Endurance as the third feat.

 

[Cleon]

Swim 20 ft. and flavor text about the "can't fly while wet" work for me.

Turtle feats:
Snapping Turtle (Stormwrack): Improved Natural Armor (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
Warturtle (Dragon 343): Endurance, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
Archelon: Great Fortitude, Toughness (x4)

Giant Dragonfly has Flyby Attack as a bonus feat.

So, Flyby Attack sounds good. Wingover probably works, too. I think I favor Endurance as the third feat.

I was musing about Weapon Focus (bite) but Endurance suits me just as well.

Turtles are great survivors, and dragonflies have high stamina, so putting them together to give Dragonfly Turtles Endurance makes sense to me.

 

[Shade]

Updated.

Put all ranks in Spot like the snapping turtle in Stormwrack?

CR 4? Although they can fly and have 2 more HD, they are far less deadly than the CR 4 warturtle. The combustible, water-vulnerable wings impose quite a penalty on their greatest strength.

 

[Cleon]

Updated.

Put all ranks in Spot like the snapping turtle in Stormwrack?

I was thinking the same thing, though based on dragonflies having good eyesight.

CR 4? Although they can fly and have 2 more HD, they are far less deadly than the CR 4 warturtle. The combustible, water-vulnerable wings impose quite a penalty on their greatest strength.

Saying they're CR 4 'cause they're they are far less deadly than the CR 4 warturtle is a bit confusing, especially as the current update has a "5?" in the Challenge Rating.

EDIT: Sorry, I just realized it was me who put the "CR: 5?" in the rough draft not Shade. I was helping confuse myself! :ENDEDIT

I was thinking the dragonfly turtle is roughly equal to a Griffon, so was going to suggest Challenge Rating 4.

Anyhow, I've been thinking we should formalize their wings water vulnerability in case the PCs try to get them wet. Here's what I've come up with:

Water-Sensitive Wings (Ex): Exposure to water softens a dragonfly turtle's wings, meaning the turtle can not fly in rain or if its wings are soaked by swimming. If a dragonfly turtle is struck by a water-based effect, such as a create water spell or a Water Elemental's drench attack, it must make a Fortitude save (DC15 or the DC of the spell or special attack) or be forced to land as if it had lost a wing (see Combustible Wings, above). A dragonfly turtle with wet wings can dry them out by "buzzing" them for at least a minute (up to 1d6+6 for water-logged wings or if the air is very humid). It needs to spend a move action to "buzz" its wings for a round.
​

That's the cut down version. My original draft was a lot more complicated.

 

[freyar]

That combined with the combustion just feels awfully complicated. How about this?

Vulnerable Wings (Ex): A dragonfly turtle's wings are highly flammable. Any time a dragonfly turtle takes fire damage, it must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 plus the fire damage taken) or lose wings (one wing per X points of damage). A dragonfly turtle which has lost a single wing cannot fly, but can land without taking falling damage as per feather fall. A dragonfly turtle that has lost two or more wings takes normal falling damage.

Additionally, a dragonfly turtle cannot fly with wet wings. If a dragonfly turtle is struck by a water based attack or effect while flying, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equal to that of the attack or effect, DC 15 if not otherwise specified) or be forced to land as if it had lost one wing. Drying wings takes at least one minute but possibly longer depending on the circumstances.

 

[Cleon]

That combined with the combustion just feels awfully complicated. How about this?

Vulnerable Wings (Ex): A dragonfly turtle's wings are highly flammable. Any time a dragonfly turtle takes fire damage, it must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 plus the fire damage taken) or lose wings (one wing per X points of damage). A dragonfly turtle which has lost a single wing cannot fly, but can land without taking falling damage as per feather fall. A dragonfly turtle that has lost two or more wings takes normal falling damage.

Additionally, a dragonfly turtle cannot fly with wet wings. If a dragonfly turtle is struck by a water based attack or effect while flying, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equal to that of the attack or effect, DC 15 if not otherwise specified) or be forced to land as if it had lost one wing. Drying wings takes at least one minute but possibly longer depending on the circumstances.

I don't mind combining the two and simplifying them a bit.

I'd like to keep the sunder approach for flaming weapons though, and I think the "Drying wings" sentence could do with a bit of rephrasing.

How about:

Vulnerable Wings (Ex): A dragonfly turtle's wings are highly flammable. They can be damaged by area-of-effect fire attacks, or by an opponent with a flaming weapon making Sunder attacks against the AC17 wings (sunder damage to a wing does not harm the turtle). The dragonfly turtle must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 plus the fire damage taken) or lose wings (one wing per 4 points of damage). A dragonfly turtle which has lost a single wing cannot fly, but can land without taking falling damage as per the feather fall spell. A dragonfly turtle that has lost two or more wings takes normal falling damage.

Additionally, dragonfly turtles cannot fly with wet wings. If a dragonfly turtle is struck by a water based attack or effect while flying, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equal to that of the attack or effect, DC 15 if not otherwise specified) or be forced to land as if it had lost one wing. A dragonfly turtle can dry wet wings by buzzing them for at least one minute, or longer depending on the circumstances.

 

[freyar]

That's ok, but I wonder why you'd bother with a sunder attempt and risk an AoO (possibly from the rider, too) if you can just hit the thing?

 

[Shade]

Drop the "sunder with flaming weapons" bit, and I'm happy. It's too niche fro my tastes. Keep that for the "Cleon Special" version.

In fact, I'd rather drop the wing vulnerability altogether, since dragonflies and other flying insects have no such vulnerability. But since they lack any other interesting abilities, I'll begrudgingly go along for the ride.

Updated.

Shall we work on a Training section?

 

[Cleon]

That's ok, but I wonder why you'd bother with a sunder attempt and risk an AoO (possibly from the rider, too) if you can just hit the thing?

Having it apply to regular non-Sunder fiery weapon attacks just makes it too easy to bring them down.

I'm sure there are going to be circumstances when you want to take a dragonfly turtle out of the air and only have a torch or flaming weapon, but are prepared to risk an AoO.

They're a lot easier to deal with on the ground - no diving attacks and it's easy to play "keep away" and kill them from a distance.

Besides, a flask of alchemical fire is a cheap and easy way to bring them down.

I'd rather keep the Sunder.

We could add that the wing-burning also occurs on a critical with a fiery weapons.

e.g.:

Vulnerable Wings (Ex): A dragonfly turtle's wings are highly flammable. They can be damaged by area-of-effect fire attacks, or by a critical hit or Sunder attack from a flaming weapon (The wings have AC17 against Sunder attacks, and sunder damage to a wing does not harm the turtle). The dragonfly turtle must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC equal to 10 plus the fire damage taken) or lose wings (one wing per 4 points of fire damage). A dragonfly turtle which has lost a single wing cannot fly, but can land without taking falling damage as per the feather fall spell. A dragonfly turtle that has lost two or more wings takes normal falling damage.

Additionally, dragonfly turtles cannot fly with wet wings. If a dragonfly turtle is struck by a water based attack or effect while flying, it must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC equal to that of the attack or effect, DC 15 if not otherwise specified) or be forced to land as if it had lost one wing. A dragonfly turtle can dry wet wings by buzzing them for at least one minute, or longer depending on the circumstances.