D&D 3E/3.5 Void Disciple <3.5>

[LuckyBoneDice]

Other than the crap spellcasting progression, is this a good path for a shugenja?

Because I thought (with the housrules of my DMs) that this would be good for a Shugenja build

 

[Takhisis]

First of all, if you are using a Shugenja, are you playing standard 3.5 or oriental adventures? If the latter, are you playing using Rokugan extras? I ask because shugenjas, as is, have few options unless you use rokugan content, hence why I am asking.

Shugenja can be an excellent class if you have the right content. Depending on what level you are, I would ask your DM if you could use spells from the third party publisher D20 Rokugan books. Those books offer Shugenjas so many options that with that content their spell list rivals the wizard/sorcerer list for sheer size.

However, word of warning about using those spells, some of them are useless outside of the Rokugan setting. Particular spells which deal with Void Points will be completely useless for you, and the many spells which effect/deal with tainted creatures and the taint will be generally useless unless you face a lot of undead or your DM decides to make a BBEG who is a Tainted Scholar.

As for PrC options for Shugenja, Void Disciple is generally a horrid option. While 9/10 caster level progression can be "ok" if you get good enough stuff, 5/10 CL progression is just completely horrid, even more so on a Shugenja who already learns spells slower then a wizard. Thus, almost any full CL progression divine class is better then Void Disciple. However, I know the flavor fits a Shugenja better then most divine advancing classes and you seam to be looking for flavor, which is why I again suggest the Oriental Adventures content from third parties. Not only is there more spells, but if I remember correctly, better PrCs for Shugenjas and other oriental classes.

One PrC I do know for a shugenja that actually fits the flavor and is worth picking up if you have the third party stuff( and if you are evil) is the Maho-Tsukai. It's strictly an evil class, but I believe that when you take it you get to keep some, if not most of your shugenja spells and gain a whole new spell list that has some very nice and flavorful evil-themed spells. The only downside is by RAW, their list is heavily limited and small, however, again, with third party content, the list gets fattened up quit nicely and as a result the class becomes viable and still has great flavor. The Maho Tsukai has spells levels 0-9 but when you take the class you "trade in" levels of Shugenja for levels of Maho which means if you where a Shugenja who could cast up to level 3 spells, you would be able to now cast Maho spells of up to level 3 rather then start out with only level 1 and 0 Maho spells. Just be warned using Maho magic means you will have to cut yourself/use you blood to fuel your spells so that may be a turnoff.

The only issues I see with it not already mentioned is that entry requires you have a certain taint score(I forget which), but if you are at low enough levels you can still learn a Maho spell(Maho spells can be learned as "off element" spells by Shugenja) which gives you taint every time you cast it.

If you don't have the third party oriental adventures books, I can PM you with info on how/wear to get them.

However, if you can use thrid party content, Shugenja 20 in itself becomes a decent build with all the options they have spell wise. Your still more a divine sorcerer then anything else, but your list is now on par with a sorcerer which means you can be about even with a sorcerer 20.

 

[LuckyBoneDice]

First of all, if you are using a Shugenja, are you playing standard 3.5 or oriental adventures? If the latter, are you playing using Rokugan extras? I ask because shugenjas, as is, have few options unless you use rokugan content, hence why I am asking.

Shugenja can be an excellent class if you have the right content. Depending on what level you are, I would ask your DM if you could use spells from the third party publisher D20 Rokugan books. Those books offer Shugenjas so many options that with that content their spell list rivals the wizard/sorcerer list for sheer size.

However, word of warning about using those spells, some of them are useless outside of the Rokugan setting. Particular spells which deal with Void Points will be completely useless for you, and the many spells which effect/deal with tainted creatures and the taint will be generally useless unless you face a lot of undead or your DM decides to make a BBEG who is a Tainted Scholar.

As for PrC options for Shugenja, Void Disciple is generally a horrid option. While 9/10 caster level progression can be "ok" if you get good enough stuff, 5/10 CL progression is just completely horrid, even more so on a Shugenja who already learns spells slower then a wizard. Thus, almost any full CL progression divine class is better then Void Disciple. However, I know the flavor fits a Shugenja better then most divine advancing classes and you seam to be looking for flavor, which is why I again suggest the Oriental Adventures content from third parties. Not only is there more spells, but if I remember correctly, better PrCs for Shugenjas and other oriental classes.

One PrC I do know for a shugenja that actually fits the flavor and is worth picking up if you have the third party stuff( and if you are evil) is the Maho-Tsukai. It's strictly an evil class, but I believe that when you take it you get to keep some, if not most of your shugenja spells and gain a whole new spell list that has some very nice and flavorful evil-themed spells. The only downside is by RAW, their list is heavily limited and small, however, again, with third party content, the list gets fattened up quit nicely and as a result the class becomes viable and still has great flavor. The Maho Tsukai has spells levels 0-9 but when you take the class you "trade in" levels of Shugenja for levels of Maho which means if you where a Shugenja who could cast up to level 3 spells, you would be able to now cast Maho spells of up to level 3 rather then start out with only level 1 and 0 Maho spells. Just be warned using Maho magic means you will have to cut yourself/use you blood to fuel your spells so that may be a turnoff.

The only issues I see with it not already mentioned is that entry requires you have a certain taint score(I forget which), but if you are at low enough levels you can still learn a Maho spell(Maho spells can be learned as "off element" spells by Shugenja) which gives you taint every time you cast it.

If you don't have the third party oriental adventures books, I can PM you with info on how/wear to get them.

However, if you can use thrid party content, Shugenja 20 in itself becomes a decent build with all the options they have spell wise. Your still more a divine sorcerer then anything else, but your list is now on par with a sorcerer which means you can be about even with a sorcerer 20.

I see...

My group has a home rule that advances all partial casting PrCs to being full casting. Considering the 13 levels, I thought it was "unique" for the sake of flavor. I was wondering if the class features were worth the 13 levels...

And I'm using a hybrid of OA and 3.5 Shugenja, with some spells from Spell Compendium allowed for me to cast. Besides, even without that, the Shugenja list from OA and CD is a superb list, much like druid and most of wizard.

As for 3rd party Rokugan, I only have the Core Book and the Seven Swords books.

If you can list the other 3rd party books, it'd be nice.

 

[Takhisis]

If Void Dicsiple gets full CL progression under house rules, by all means take it. If it gets full CL, it's PERFECT for your Shugenja. The only reason I said it was so horrid was the 5/10 CL progression, so as long as the CL progression is at full rather then 5/10 go ahead and take the class, it's flavor fits well.

As for the oriental adventures books, one of the better books for spells is Magic of Rokugan. You also would want the Rokugan D20 core book(NOT wizard's OA, but you will need the OA from Wizards to use any of the content from this book.) I also will suggest Way of the Shugenja. There may be others, but I don't know them right now. Magic of Rokugan has some shugenja PRCs as well, but be warned that the Jade Magistrate class dose not work outside of Rokugan.(uses void points for some of it's abilities)

 

[LuckyBoneDice]

If Void Dicsiple gets full CL progression under house rules, by all means take it. If it gets full CL, it's PERFECT for your Shugenja. The only reason I said it was so horrid was the 5/10 CL progression, so as long as the CL progression is at full rather then 5/10 go ahead and take the class, it's flavor fits well.

As for the oriental adventures books, one of the better books for spells is Magic of Rokugan. You also would want the Rokugan D20 core book(NOT wizard's OA, but you will need the OA from Wizards to use any of the content from this book.) I also will suggest Way of the Shugenja. There may be others, but I don't know them right now. Magic of Rokugan has some shugenja PRCs as well, but be warned that the Jade Magistrate class dose not work outside of Rokugan.(uses void points for some of it's abilities)

8/13, but who's paying attention.
and I have all of them, minus Way of the Shugenja

 

[Dandu]

Other than the crap spellcasting progression, is this a good path for a shugenja?

Void Disciple has an ability that is potentially horribly broken due to being very poorly written.

 

[LuckyBoneDice]

Void Disciple has an ability that is potentially horribly broken due to being very poorly written.

Broken?

 

[Dandu]

Quote from SonofZeal
3) Void Suppression. No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there. Requires a melee touch attack. Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.

2) Moment of Clarity. Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds. Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.

1) Sense Void. Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check. This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that? Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state? Can you move around? How long does it last? Does it count as a divination effect? What can block it? RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries. Illusions work, though.

In other words, it's potentially "Scry and Die" on steroids.


Conclusion: Void Disciple loses enough spell levels that it could be underpowered, depending on how Sense Void is ruled to work. RAW is vague enough that most of the overpowered potential is based purely on the lack of defined limits. I've personally seen this thing break campaigns though, and I wouldn't recommend it for general PC use.

 

[LuckyBoneDice]

Quote from SonofZeal
3) Void Suppression. No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there. Requires a melee touch attack. Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.

2) Moment of Clarity. Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds. Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.

1) Sense Void. Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check. This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that? Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state? Can you move around? How long does it last? Does it count as a divination effect? What can block it? RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries. Illusions work, though.

In other words, it's potentially "Scry and Die" on steroids.


Conclusion: Void Disciple loses enough spell levels that it could be underpowered, depending on how Sense Void is ruled to work. RAW is vague enough that most of the overpowered potential is based purely on the lack of defined limits. I've personally seen this thing break campaigns though, and I wouldn't recommend it for general PC use.

So. How often should I expect the nonexistent cleric to res me?