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Why arn't Controllers Sexy

It's in the Adventurer's Vault, one of the first books - if the DM allows Winged Horde, I bet he allows Staff of Ruin.

It depends on the DM. Some DMs check out the optimization boards for items that are questionable, or check out the forums for such discussions.

The Druid in our game has a Staff of Ruin, but it barely brings her near the other PCs with regard to damage. Nobody thinks that she is hogging the damage spotlight.

In many cases he's just giving up the opportunity to buy something else of a similar level, rather than 5 same level items.

This is true. The player can save up (typically for 3+ levels) for a same level magic item.

But, this usually only works for a single item. Acquiring multiple specific items that need to advance their enhancement bonuses, that's a lot tougher.
 

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This thread is getting more and more ridiculous. I don't mean to attack you, KarinsDad, this isn't personal or meant to be malicious. But it appears to me that you're literally just arguing to argue now, and becoming increasingly silly with your points.


Am I correct in paraphrasing your argument, KarinsDad, as follows?

Damage is better than "weak" or "questionable" control, so you should use Scorching Burst because it does more damage. However, you're not going to take any of the many feats and items that increase your damage. So, you should pick the spell that does more damage, but not pick any of the options that vastly add to your damage, and just rely on your Intelligence modifier.

Is that essentially what you're saying? Because that's what it looks like you're saying, to me.


Okay, given this, I'll admit that I might indeed choose Scorching Burst over Winged Horde, if I decided that I would firmly follow two distinct rules for character build:

1. I should deal the largest damage numbers possible with my spells, regardless of number of targets, ease of hitting, or battlefield control elements.

2. I should not take any feats or magic items to increase my damage numbers.


Yes, you win. Given those two stipulations, Scorching Burst IS clearly better.
 

So, the game is not fun if the player isn't entitled to exactly what items that he wanted when he went to Character Builder and at first level, designed his entire PC all of the way up to 30th level?

Sorry, but the game is still fun if the DM picks reasonable items without kowtowing to a player's specific optimization ideas.

Stating that not using wish lists as not fun is just plain in error. Many games are a lot of fun without using wish lists.


I actually agree with you completely on this point, though.
 

Just for a slightly different spin. Not even remotely optimized, but assuming they both have dual implement spellcaster, weapon focus, and enlarge spell (which the Scorching Burst guy likely gets, even if he can't use it as well, nothing else for other powers):

WH: (d6 - 2 + Enhx2 + Tier) x4
SB: (d6 + Int + Enhx2 + Tier) x2

18 vs 21 +1 implement
26 vs 25 +2 implement
26 vs 27 level 8 ability score
30 vs 29 level 11 (Weapon Focus +2)
38 vs 33 +3 implement
38 vs 35 level 14 ability score
46 vs 39 +4 implement
56 vs 52 level 21 ability score plus Epic class bonus plus second d6 plus Weapon Focus +3
64 vs 56 +5 implement
64 vs 58 level 28 ability score
72 vs 62 +6 implement

Final Check at 30:
WH: (2d6 - 4 + 12 + 3) x 4 = 72
SB: (2d6 + 9 + 12 + 3) x 2 = 62

But it'd be easy to consider WH better starting at about level 4 or so, based on the above.
 

Reasonable?

So, the game is not fun if the player isn't entitled to exactly what items that he wanted when he went to Character Builder and at first level, designed his entire PC all of the way up to 30th level?

The DMG actually states that the DM should tailor the items. It also states that "one great way" to do that is with wish lists, but this is not "directions in the DMG". It's one suggestion. That suggestion also has the DM pick from three to five items, not give the player exactly what items he wants.


Sorry, but the game is still fun if the DM picks reasonable items without kowtowing to a player's specific optimization ideas.

Stating that not using wish lists as not fun is just plain in error. Many games are a lot of fun without using wish lists.



Not quite. 4 foes with Enlarged WH with Weapon Focus vs. 2 foes with SC with Weapon Focus:

12 vs 18 +1 implement
16 vs 20 +2 implement
16 vs 22 level 8 ability score
20 vs 24 +3 implement
24 vs 28 level 14 ability score
28 vs 30 +4 implement
48 vs 44 level 21 ability score plus Epic class bonus plus second d6
52 vs 48 +5 implement
52 vs 48 level 27 ability score
56 vs 50 +6 implement

And of course, the WH Wizard is using an extra feat that the SC Wizard is not.
A feat every build will take if they buy into the damage thing, just like they'll get an SoR.

And, no, the game isn't fun. Fun is subjective, I concede, but I'll go out on a limb here and say the following are not fun: Missing 75% of the time, being hit 90% of the time, rerolling frequently due to deaths, all of which can happen if you screw with the power curve in 4e that is magic items without changing anything else. That would not be fun for me, so I won't play with a DM who does those things. And I don't have to worry about it in LFR. Given the size of LFR and the fact that most DMs aren't really interested in telling their players "No, no, you can't have that magic item!" I'm going to go ahead and say that getting the magic items you want happens the majority of the time. Either via the wishlist rule or the modified sale value rules found in Endworld's houserules forum.

And, yes, not getting the exact magic items I want as a character would make the game simply not fun for me. I appreciate good character building, and magic items are a part of that. So saying that "it doesn't make the game not fun" is untrue, for me, and you should perhaps stop making generalized statements about your opinion as if they were facts.
 

And, yes, not getting the exact magic items I want as a character would make the game simply not fun for me. I appreciate good character building, and magic items are a part of that. So saying that "it doesn't make the game not fun" is untrue, for me, and you should perhaps stop making generalized statements about your opinion as if they were facts.

Wow. I cannot say that I have ever heard of a player who thought the game was not fun if the DM didn't give him the exact magic items that he wanted.
 

Yeah, honestly sounds a bit extreme to me - part of why I wanted to see the results with a much lower amount of stuff. Given that WH looked better without any magic items of note at all... that was more telling.

And I don't buy into the whole "vs Will is better than vs Reflex" thing at all.
 

This thread is getting more and more ridiculous. I don't mean to attack you, KarinsDad, this isn't personal or meant to be malicious. But it appears to me that you're literally just arguing to argue now, and becoming increasingly silly with your points.

...

Yes, you win. Given those two stipulations, Scorching Burst IS clearly better.

This seems like Snark, just to be Snark, regardless of your original qualifier to the contrary.

I'm a Wizard. I want to do area effect damage on occasion. I want to do a lot of it when given the opportunity. Sure, I could take Winged Horde and I basically suck at it at lower levels.

Why? Several reasons:

Area effect At Will powers are best used after Area Effect Encounter powers with one exception, Minions. So unless I think there are minions, I'm going to want to do as much control as possible or as much damage as possible as quickly as possible. It's all about Action Economy and Winged Horde at low level does little to affect Action Economy. Encounter powers, they tend to do more control and more damage than Winged Horde. So as a general rule, I won't typically be using too many At Will powers on rounds one through three. Sometimes, sure. But mostly, the earlier rounds are about putting the controlling and damaging smack down on as many NPCs as possible and that means Encounter powers, Area Effect Encounter powers if I can manage it.

In latter rounds, four through six generally, my Wizard is now low on Encounter powers. On the other hand, there are typically fewer targets to attack at this point as well. So, if I have the chance at At Will Area Effect, I'm going to take it. If I don't, I'm going to instead try to help the group with a single target At Will that hampers or moves a monster how I want it handled.

So by the time I get around to using my At Will Area Effect power, there are fewer monsters (the 4 with Winged Horde will be a rarity if the DM isn't just rushing the Defenders) and managing just 2 with Scorching Burst will outshine Winged Horde in later rounds.

Yes, Winged Horde might target a few more monsters than Scorching Burst. But, this is not guaranteed. A decent DM will throw interesting encounters at the group with difficult terrain and Artillery or Controllers from multiple directions and possibly a few Brutes or Soldiers. Skirmishers should be rushing in and trying to avoid the Defenders. It's not just a game of the Front Line is holding off all of the monsters, so it's easy to target them all.

The only time Front Line holding the line seems to happen is in a dungeon with smaller rooms. Once one gets into encounter areas of 7x7 or greater, it becomes increasingly difficult to hamper the monsters.


I also want to do control like White Lotus Riposte to encourage the monsters to go attack someone else. White Lotus Riposte does not work with Winged Horde.

Because I want a decent defense, I will probably take Armor Proficiency Leather Armor at some point.

Because I want to do damage, I'll probably take Weapon Focus at some point. I might take Dual Implement.

But I will rarely take Enlarge Spell. Decreasing the damage on several foes in order to typically get one extra foe and once in a while get two extra foes seems counter productive at the expense of a feat. It does work well with Winged Horde, but rarely does something great for Scorching Burst or most other Area powers that are typically not Enemy Only. A feat dedicated mostly to a single At Will power seems extravagent.

On the other hand, I might sometimes take Enlarge Spell if the Defender has a Resist 5 or 10 fire. I have no problem dropping fire around the Defender and targeting a bunch of foes if the Defender is partially protected.


I have already stated that Winged Horde looks like a real good option at mid-Paragon and above. But, I don't see it as that great at Heroic. There, my Wizard is still scrambling to fill in all of his feat gaps and wasting time on Enlarge Spell Winged Horde is counterproductive. There are just too many good feats that I would rather take. And, not all of them are necessarily combat feats. I might want to take a Familiar. I might want to take Linguistics. I might want to MC in order to gain a specific skill more than gain a cool combat ability. The concept of "the only good design is a combat optimized one" is not a concept that meshes 100% with my roleplaying style.

And as long as Scorching Burst does ranged smack down damage slightly better than Winged Horde in most situations, that's good enough. Sure, the drop the OA of foes is nice. But, it doesn't completely control most foes. Mostly, it prevents an occasional attack or an occasional +2 to hit. It's fairly soft control most of the time.
 

Ah, see, that is the issue. Enlarge Spell doesn't suit your style of play... but no combat-optimized build will ever not take Enlarge Spell, so it isn't an assumption for such a build, it is the default. And since RP is completely subjective, well, it is kind of hard to do math on it. You liking RP should not influence the discussion of whether Enlarge Spell is just a default choice for DPR and control (because it is), and neither should whether or not you like it.

WLMR works fine with Winged Horde, as well, even if WLR doesn't.

Most Wizards will take Unarmored Agility with PHB3 out, actually. Cloth armor enchants are actually really nice.
 

Most Wizards will take Unarmored Agility with PHB3 out, actually. Cloth armor enchants are actually really nice.

Hmm, didn't look at those. Anything better than irrefutable armor + cloak of distortion?

I think that the damage part of Winged Horde is clear, so I won't say anything about it. But control... it is true that other characters can escape flank. But, which is easier - the caracter sets up a situation where he won't be flanked next round, or wizard drops 5x5 Burst of Flanking Annulation? For wizard, only cost is not using encounter or daily powers, but those usually have even nastier effects (hell, simple daze stops flanking).
 

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