Pathfinder 1E PaizoCon 2010 News

[BryonD]

What if you want to use splat so that you can play a class that is considered underpowered?

Depends on the group. For this particular case I'd probably be more than happy to work with the player to balance the class better, or just let it fly as is. *IF* it fit into the campaign conceptually.
To me "winning" the game isn't remotely as important as creating the experience of *this* character in *that* situation and seeing things unfold. So being less capable of directly imposing your will on the scenario does not imply a reduced ability to have a hell of a good time experiencing the process.

 

[Votan]

What if you want to use splat so that you can play a class that is considered underpowered? What if I wanted to play a monk in a party full of Batman Wizards and Codzillas? What if the APG's is the thing that will turn my monk for a liability into a Chuck Norris?

It's also fairly obvious that the splat serves to assist the adventures instead of the other way around so I'm not too worried about it.

These things are difficult cases, I admit. But the general issue is that the splat books add a lot of new material that has to be thought about, integrated and understood. Perhaps I am not the sharpest stick in the pile but I prefer rules where the holes are well understood. If there are too many options, it is easy to be blindsided by something.

If a player wanted to try something underpowered then I would be inclined to try and find ways to allow the character to shine within the rules. Ether by back-story or perhaps a magic item (relics and artifacts are great for this, especially if you scale their powers by character level).

When I stopped playing 3.5E, we had 200+ pages of house rules to make more than 30 splat books work in a (reasonably) consistent manner.

 

[MichaelSomething]

To me "winning" the game isn't remotely as important as creating the experience of *this* character in *that* situation and seeing things unfold. So being less capable of directly imposing your will on the scenario does not imply a reduced ability to have a hell of a good time experiencing the process.

So I guess you would dig playing one of the Scoobies in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG then ? Or maybe running a RIFTs game would be more of your thing?

When I stopped playing 3.5E, we had 200+ pages of house rules to make more than 30 splat books work in a (reasonably) consistent manner.

That's your problem there. 30 splat books is way, way too much. Once you get over 10 books, you're just asking for trouble.

 

[Votan]

That's your problem there. 30 splat books is way, way too much. Once you get over 10 books, you're just asking for trouble.

Agreed. Which is why I get cautious about expanding numbers of books in Pathfinder, as well. That being said, I will grant that they are taking fairly active steps to make prestige classes less overwhelming good as options and the idea of switching out class features is fine. It's a lot harder to hyper-optimize in these circumstances.

But you still worry about Divine Metamagic sneaking back in . . .

 

[ruemere]

My approach mirrors that of BryonD's.

1. There is certain canon of allowed stuff (I put it down in a short manifest for everyone to read... and I did my utmost to keep it short and simple). I have made sure to reiterate it before the beginning of the campaign and to any new player.

2. New stuff is accepted only after consultation with GM (i.e. me) and only in small quantities (single rule, single item, single spell).

3. When we were making switch to Pathfinder RPG (final version), I have told the players: We are converting. You are allowed to keep two things of your choice (of feats, spells, items). PFRPG with some modifications is new baseline. You may rebuild your characters any way you want, provided you keep signature traits intact.
The players understood my concerns and, with a few exceptions (accepted by everyone) the change took place.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[BryonD]

So I guess you would dig playing one of the Scoobies in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG then ?

Zeppo, CPR, and eye patches.... Bring it on!

Honestly, it depends. We have this whole RPG legacy with its roots in LotR. Playing Frodo as presented in the actual books would SUCK way more than any supporting character in Buffy. And yet it adapts quite nicely.

I have said in other threads that I find balance to be important at the PC to PC level, but I don't worry about it nearly as much when it comes to encounter by encounter balance. So the idea of a Xander character being a limited support in a particular encounter does not make me bat an eye. It is no problem to keep contribution and even just the fun of being involved persistent in the game for both the Slayer player and the Scooby player, so everyone is having fun and, if the there is a way to win then that is the very definition of "winning" the game.

It certainly requires some higher level of skill from the GM to run a wider range of players. But a little-leaguer not enjoying or benefiting from a fast pitch hitting machine is not evidence of a flaw in the machine.

I'm sure you could reach some extreme disparity that would be pointless. But we are talking within a PF thread with legacy 3X as a reference. I don't know of any classes that come close to the Xander / Buffy disconnect and even that disconnect isn't bothersome to me. So I don't see a greater disconnect as relevant.

Or maybe running a RIFTs game would be more of your thing?

Never played it. Don't know.

That's your problem there. 30 splat books is way, way too much. Once you get over 10 books, you're just asking for trouble.

I've got over 50 3X books within steps of where I'm sitting. I guess trouble doesn't like me because apparently I'm beyond asking and well in to begging, but still no trouble.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I'm sure you could reach some extreme disparity that would be pointless. But we are talking within a PF thread with legacy 3X as a reference. I don't know of any classes that come close to the Xander / Buffy disconnect and even that disconnect isn't bothersome to me. So I don't see a greater disconnect as relevant.

Indeed I can but I would need to compare splat books to core... with the splat providing the pitiful Spelltheif versus the core and always considered overpowered Wizard

The Thing with the Buffy RPG is that the game and players understand and operate under the assumption that the Slayer will do the slaying while the Scoobies do other things. The game also gives the Scoobies drama points or something like that to help even out the power balance and include them in the plot. Late on in the series, everyone becomes able to contribute to the splaying part via magic or fighting on some level.

D&D doesn't operate under assumptions like that.

 

[BryonD]

Indeed I can but I would need to compare splat books to core... with the splat providing the pitiful Spelltheif versus the core and always considered overpowered Wizard

I don't see a problem.

The Thing with the Buffy RPG is that the game and players understand and operate under the assumption that the Slayer will do the slaying while the Scoobies do other things. The game also gives the Scoobies drama points or something like that to help even out the power balance and include them in the plot. Late on in the series, everyone becomes able to contribute to the splaying part via magic or fighting on some level.

So now you are beating up your own example?

D&D doesn't operate under assumptions like that.

Says who?

 

[BryonD]

Well, it I'm holding out hope for a clarification.

But the first preview out today has been a kick in the teeth to my optimism against power creep.......

 

[Votan]

Well, it I'm holding out hope for a clarification.

But the first preview out today has been a kick in the teeth to my optimism against power creep.......

What do you mean?