Staff Fighting and Dual Implement Spellcaster

[Black Knight Irios]

Subtle is a WEAPON enchantment. The rules for weapon enchantments don't change just because you are using it as an implement. Two completely separate rules that have nothing to do with each other.

You shouldn't base your rules argument on AV1 when PHB3 has rules for it as well. They state that you can apply a weapon's magical properties when you use them as implements. WotC CharOp agrees that a subtle weapon can be off-handed to gain the bonus damage from the property.

 

[abyssaldeath]

You shouldn't base your rules argument on AV1 when PHB3 has rules for it as well. They state that you can apply a weapon's magical properties when you use them as implements. WotC CharOp agrees that a subtle weapon can be off-handed to gain the bonus damage from the property.

Nothing in the PHB3 rules override the AV1 rules. It says you gain the weapons properties, but it doesn't say you don't follow the rules for weapon properties.

WotC CharOp usually agrees on what is the most beneficial for them and they look for any loophole possible to gain an advantage. They completely ignore the AV1 rule because they don't like it. They completely ignore the AV1 rule for weapon users too, so you can not use their stance on it to justify allowing weaplement users bypassing the rule.

 

[Siran Dunmorgan]

Do you know the reference for this Nifft?

If by this you mean the reference for Dual Implement Spellcaster working with Staff implements, the customer service ruling is quoted at the top of the second page of this thread.

That said, if Customer Service agrees with the implementation of Dual Implement Spellcaster in the Character Builder, it seems unlikely that this interpretation will be considered a bug.

—Siran Dunmorgan

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Nothing in the PHB3 rules override the AV1 rules. It says you gain the weapons properties, but it doesn't say you don't follow the rules for weapon properties.

WotC CharOp usually agrees on what is the most beneficial for them and they look for any loophole possible to gain an advantage. They completely ignore the AV1 rule because they don't like it. They completely ignore the AV1 rule for weapon users too, so you can not use their stance on it to justify allowing weaplement users bypassing the rule.

Where does it say that the rules for weapon properties apply for implement properties? You are using an implement which happens to be a weapon. There is no restriction like that for implements, AFAIK.

CharOp has become more reasonable regarding rulings since the start of 4E. Still, you can distrust them - as one can distrust a single opinion on another board.

 

[CovertOps]

If by this you mean the reference for Dual Implement Spellcaster working with Staff implements, the customer service ruling is quoted at the top of the second page of this thread.

That said, if Customer Service agrees with the implementation of Dual Implement Spellcaster in the Character Builder, it seems unlikely that this interpretation will be considered a bug.

—Siran Dunmorgan

No...that ruling states that DIS works with a double weapon. Nifft was talking about a Staff implement not needing "Staff Fighting" (a feat) to work with DIS.

 

[Aulirophile]

Subtle is a WEAPON enchantment. The rules for weapon enchantments don't change just because you are using it as an implement. Two completely separate rules that have nothing to do with each other.

Well, there are two completely separate rules that have nothing to do with each other at work here, that is true.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, there are two completely separate rules that have nothing to do with each other at work here, that is true.

It does not work because, despite the fact that dual implement spellcaster allows you to add a second enhancement bonus to damage, it does not present an exception to the 'same named game element rule.'

That being, that two elements of the same name cannot stack their bonuses.

The staff you are using's enhancement bonus has a name. I don't know what it is because it depends on the staff you are using, but there it is. Let's call that name X.

Dual Implement Spellcaster says you can apply X to your damage rolls, but you're already applying X to that roll. You cannot apply X twice, so even if it could in theory work, it cannot work.

The only way it could work is if the implement in question could, somehow, have both ends enchanted separately. Then both ends would have different names and it would work smoothly.

The question of whether the staff is a double weapon is moot; The rules simply do not allow you to add the exact same bonus twice.

 

[CovertOps]

It does not work because, despite the fact that dual implement spellcaster allows you to add a second enhancement bonus to damage, it does not present an exception to the 'same named game element rule.'

That being, that two elements of the same name cannot stack their bonuses.

The staff you are using's enhancement bonus has a name. I don't know what it is because it depends on the staff you are using, but there it is. Let's call that name X.

Dual Implement Spellcaster says you can apply X to your damage rolls, but you're already applying X to that roll. You cannot apply X twice, so even if it could in theory work, it cannot work.

The only way it could work is if the implement in question could, somehow, have both ends enchanted separately. Then both ends would have different names and it would work smoothly.

The question of whether the staff is a double weapon is moot; The rules simply do not allow you to add the exact same bonus twice.

Just a consideration: This disagrees with the CS ruling found on page 2, but of course that ruling is about a year old. The question becomes did they intend for the outcome that they got the way you present it. I still contend that DIS grants an untyped bonus equal to the enhancement bonus of the item in question.

Edit: Forgot to ask...what's the reference on the "same named game element rule". PHB2?

 

[abyssaldeath]

Edit: Forgot to ask...what's the reference on the "same named game element rule". PHB2?

March? rules update.

Some bonuses are untyped. Bonuses that have no type add together. However, if you gain multiple untyped bonuses from the same named game element (a power, a feat, a class feature, and the like), only the highest bonus applies, unless stated otherwise. For example, if you spend an action point and can see two warlords who have the Tactical Presence class feature, you gain the bonus to attack rolls from only one of the warlords, whichever one provides the higher bonus.”

 

[Black Knight Irios]

It does not work because, despite the fact that dual implement spellcaster allows you to add a second enhancement bonus to damage, it does not present an exception to the 'same named game element rule.'

That being, that two elements of the same name cannot stack their bonuses.

The staff you are using's enhancement bonus has a name. I don't know what it is because it depends on the staff you are using, but there it is. Let's call that name X.

Dual Implement Spellcaster says you can apply X to your damage rolls, but you're already applying X to that roll. You cannot apply X twice, so even if it could in theory work, it cannot work.

The only way it could work is if the implement in question could, somehow, have both ends enchanted separately. Then both ends would have different names and it would work smoothly.

The question of whether the staff is a double weapon is moot; The rules simply do not allow you to add the exact same bonus twice.

I was talking about off-handing a subtle weapon (used as implement) and using a totally different mainhand implement. It has nothing to with staffs and doubleweapons/etc. In my case there will be no same game element twice.