"Not 4.5" is coming soon. Thoughts?

[Njall]

There is a variaty of changes happening.

-100 plus pages of errata
-new directions in some later books (MMIII is the prime example)
-the essentials, compatible but basically a redo on both player and monster side.
-?

The "?" is what happens post essentials. Are getting "expert" rules to go with the "basic" ones?

Besides confirming that this is quite a bit of change, not really sure what to think (well besides that statement in my sig). We will learn more from Gencon, the DDI previews, and of course when we start to see this stuff.

Yes, but there's a huge difference: they're not trying to sell you a reprint of the same old stuff.
The reason 3.5 irked a lot of people is that most felt they had to buy the same set of books twice. Once you bought 3.5, your 3.0 books were pretty much useless.
Essentials doesn't work this way: if you buy the Red Box, for example, you're going to have a couple new builds per class, new options for the old races as well as new feats and powers.
Sure, there's some overlap with the first PHB ( the races, for example, some feats, the combat and skills chapters...) but you're also buying a lot of new material.
In addition, the errata includes a crapton of powers, feats, PP features and class features that aren't going to be reprinted neither in the Red Box nor, probably, in the rules compendium.
Finally, if you play an "essential only" game, you're going to lose any previously released class builds, feats, PPs and EDs, while when 3.5 hit the street, you could just sell your old Core books and use the new ones.
So I still don't see this as a 4.5, not even close...

 

[Ryujin]

One thing I hadn't considered; the possibility that the original races might be re-released using the new (one attribute @ +2) + (this-or-that attribute @ +2) bonus mechanic.

 

[NMcCoy]

I don't care whether or not it's 4.5 but it seems to me they are removing not just daily powers but also the variety of encounter powers as well. I don't see how the rules compendium can list encounter powers for every build in the essentials line. That tells me that instead of picking new powers as you level, you will basically just get power points or something. So they already took the simulationism out of the game. Are they taking the cinematics out as well?

See, this is the sort of thing I meant about leaping to wild unfounded conclusions. "I don't see how the rules compendium can list encounter powers for every build in the essentials line"? Okay, there's two things you could be talking about here - the DDI Compendium, which lists all the powers ever and will have no difficulty continuing to do so, or the Rules Compendium book, which (as far as I know) doesn't even have powers in it. And from that you've decided that "you will basically just get power points or something" and they're "taking the cinematics out" of the game?

 

[bagger245]

Wonder if we can multiclass PHB1 Fighter with Essentials Fighter or hybrid it.

 

[azog]

So "Not 4.5" (aka DnD "Essentials") is coming out pretty soon. Despite the (official) name, it's completely optional, just like maps & miniatures are. What are people's thoughts on it?

Personally I think getting rid of Daily powers is a great idea, and something they should have done in the first place. So long 5-minute adventuring day. What I hope they don't do is go the route of power points, etc, ala the Psionicist. The thing that could draw me back into DnD would be if they follow the K.I.S.S. school of game design and streamline all these extra fiddly-bits.

It's even more optional than maps & miniatures. It doesn't replace anything.

I don't know why I keep seeing the sentiment that Essentials was anything other than a "basic" set, which will not change the game we're playing now at all.

 

[Ryujin]

Wonder if we can multiclass PHB1 Fighter with Essentials Fighter or hybrid it.

As they seem to be saying that these will be alternate builds within the existing classes, this would not be possible. A Fighter cannot MC as a Fighter.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

When they come out with new editions of Magic does it invalidate all the previous cards?

Depends on how you play. If you are a casual player, no. If you are a tournament player, definitely.

It's even more optional than maps & miniatures. It doesn't replace anything.

Yes, the Essentials line is meant to be additive.

I don't know why I keep seeing the sentiment that Essentials was anything other than a "basic" set, which will not change the game we're playing now at all.

It's not just a "basic" set. The Red Box is basic, it covers levels 1-3(?). But the Essential Rules Compendium will cover all 30 levels. It doesn't have to change the game you're playing any more than Players Handbook 3 or Arcane Power did. It's intended as an add-on with a different take on mechanical builds for some classes.

 

[jbear]

Scribble Said: (sorry I forgot to quote you when I sent the message)
"""I wonder if they've decided that new editions, and half editions are bad for business... They divide players, cause "wars" and just get people annoyed at "having" to re-buy stuff in an updated form.

I'm guessing that instead 4e is just going to continue to grow and change almost organically, so 5 or 6 years from now the game may be dramatically different then it was in 2008, but the edition will still say 4th.

I mean look at how different stuff is even now?

We might never even see an official 5th edition, or if we do, it won't be new books... Just updates to the core 4e rules.

When they come out with new editions of Magic does it invalidate all the previous cards?"""

This makes sense. I'm not sure even the most ardent detractors of 4e would deny that WotC has learnt from its mistakes. Dividing their market so drastically is something I'm sure they won't want to have happen again.

I think wherever the boat is going, we should keep in mind who is captain at the helm. A man who has openly expressed that a) he is not going to give up on bringing 'lost' players/customers back onto the boat
and b) that he wants to recapture the nostalgia that he experienced when he first began playing dnd within the new edition.

1. They are not going to risk a backlash from current happy players
2. They want to simplify things for new players
3. They want the same product to be interesting to current players
4. They have said that much of the new material released will be compatible with current material

Until the product comes out and we can judge if they have achieved those goals it's hard speculate. However if we are going to speculate i think that those supposed goals should cast a light on how we speculate until we can fully judge.

 

[renau1g]

I'd wager that the new encounter powers will be balanced the same as existing encounter powers. If the new builds do remove daily powers, they could easily compensate via some new class feature. That approach would certainly be at least as easy as maintaining two kinds of encounter powers. It could be something like the ability to recharge encounter powers or to add two dice to an encounter power's damage roll once per day or gaining extra encounter powers or whatever.

I wonder if I can hybrid the PHB fighter with the essentials fighter to get all their goodness

 

[JeffB]

I love 4E, and I'll be picking up the Red box at least but the one thing that kind of bewilders me is that while I understand (and totallyagree with) putting out the ERB (essentials red box)- the rest of the line is confusing for someone midly informed like me, let alone new players & DMs.

Red Box
Books of classic races and classes
book of new(er) races and classes
rules compendium
DMs "kit"
Monster "kit"
Tile kit


One of the big complaints for new players, is the 3 hardback book syndrome- its not only rules overload, it's a BIG initial expense (for the DM). This looks to be another big initial expense (considering the red box only details a couple levels).

On top of that, what essentials products are essential as newplayer and or DM?

As a DM can I just use the red box and DM kit? do I need to have the rules compendium? it says all the rules are in there? Do I even need the DM kit if I have the rules compendium?

So who are the heroes boxes for? just players, or as a DM will I need to use this? Is the player material in the rules compendium too?

Are there monsters in the DM kit? do I even NEED the DM kit If I have red Box and Monster kit?

etc.

I know some of the answers to these questions, but what about some 10-12 year old seeing all this crap on a shelf in a bookstore for the first time? its just as confusing as PHB1/2/3, DMG 1/2/3, MM1/2/3, MP, AP, etc etc. In the early 80s you had a basic set and a expert set- and modules- both of those sets were clearly labeled and were a moderate investment with tons of value for the $. Modules for B/X were also cleary labled. Advanced D&D products were clearly labled, and although we all know now they were fairly compatible-it was obvious to players of B/X these were a different animal and "not intended for use" with the B/X rule set.

I feel a "core" set of two boxes would have been a better idea from a user friendliness standpoint. You'd have your Red Box (basic) & Blue Box (expert) utilizing the classic races, classes and monsters and including rules for players and Dms as the originals did. The COMPANION box (compendium) could serve as the one stop resource for all things optional: newer races/classes, high level play, items, etc. You could then do supplemental DM centric Monster & Treasure Assortment boxed sets containing some tiles, new monsters, treasure, and scenarios- kind of like Sandbox style adventure modules.

Tying that into the existing lineup of course (from a business standpoint) is the difficult thing- I'd likely drop the 1/2/3 lineup (barring the Monster Manuals), and start slapping on "compatible with D&D essentials" labels/stickers on the "power", "vault" and other supplemental hardcovers (open grave, MOTP, Underdark, etc) as well as the adventures.