Essentials Cleric

[Imaro]

Really though I honestly have to say I think a lot of this simplification attempt is mis-aimed. It's not class build options that make 4e complex to play. Its all the fiddly stuff that goes on DURING play that scrambles the brains of new players.

You have summed up what I have been thinking right here. With the CB and DDI, along with the ability for a DM to select what is allowable... I don't believe character creation is where the complexity for new players is at either.

I honestly am starting to get the vibe that "Essentials" is more aimed at the current market (new builds, racial stat changes, incorporation of all eratta, new powers, and new feats) and lapsed players (Hey retro-red box packaging) than at being a cheaper and easier to use game for new players (In fact it will now cost you more to get into D&D than before.).

I'm just not seeing how the "Essentials" line in and of itself will draw in new players, or (especially once this stuff and the older hardbooks are all mixed together as D&D on shelves) any easier to get into the game with? Am I missing something here?

 

[Markn]

Really though I honestly have to say I think a lot of this simplification attempt is mis-aimed. It's not class build options that make 4e complex to play. Its all the fiddly stuff that goes on DURING play that scrambles the brains of new players.

You may be right - and maybe they have addressed it with better designed feats (or what have you) in the Essentials line. Short of only designing new feats that are less fidldly, there really is no way to fix what they have already put it out. And remember, compatibility was one of the main design goals of Essentials so that means they can't retroactively fix what they already have put out.

 

[keterys]

Really though I honestly have to say I think a lot of this simplification attempt is mis-aimed. It's not class build options that make 4e complex to play. Its all the fiddly stuff that goes on DURING play that scrambles the brains of new players.

Not really - if you want to simplify the game, you do two things:
1) Make the characters simpler
2) Make the monsters simpler

So, once we can see what they do with Monster Vault we'll know if they did step 2, but step 1 is absolutely part of it.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I'm just not seeing how the "Essentials" line in and of itself will draw in new players, or (especially once this stuff and the older hardbooks are all mixed together as D&D on shelves) any easier to get into the game with? Am I missing something here?

Its easier to get into the game with when you look at using Essentials alone without any previous books. Its both integrated into base 4E, and designed to stand by itself. Its the stand by itself half that is aimed at new players.

 

[Markn]

I'm just not seeing how the "Essentials" line in and of itself will draw in new players, or (especially once this stuff and the older hardbooks are all mixed together as D&D on shelves) any easier to get into the game with? Am I missing something here?

I think WotC research has shown that 3 big hardback books (DMG, PH amd MM) don't appeal to certain age groups and newcomers who are not already into RPGs. With all the pages, and the DMG with a lot of writing, the books are intimidating and will turn off some users from the game without even trying it. The red box addresses this by not only teaching the game but does so in less pages. I think you are right though, that the price point is not part of the aim at getting new players into the game. That is simply brand design or more specifically brand survivability. The more core books that are bought over and over, the far more profit and much more success as a company WotC is.

 

[Imaro]

Its easier to get into the game with when you look at using Essentials alone without any previous books. Its both integrated into base 4E, and designed to stand by itself. Its the stand by itself half that is aimed at new players.

casualoblivion... what I'm asking is why? You don't have to use previous books with the first 3 hardbacks... weren't they designed to stand by themselves? Didn't they even have a starter set so many people on this very site defended as great for new players ( I remember that because I bought it early and started a thread on here about why I didn't think it was that great for new players... though many posters rushed to it's defense)? I guess what I'm asking is how does this "Essentials" line differ as far as new players are concerned?

 

[Pseudopsyche]

Didn't they even have a starter set so many people on this very site defended as great for new players ( I remember that because I bought it early and started a thread on here about why I didn't think it was that great for new players... though many posters rushed to it's defense)? I guess what I'm asking is how does this "Essentials" line differ as far as new players are concerned?

Everything starts with the new Red Box. It's $20, far cheaper than getting the core three for $105. If you like, consider the Red Box a second attempt at the starter set, backed up by the rest of the Essentials line.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

Really though I honestly have to say I think a lot of this simplification attempt is mis-aimed. It's not class build options that make 4e complex to play. Its all the fiddly stuff that goes on DURING play that scrambles the brains of new players.

Well, we've only really seen the character-building side (and then, only a glance). I'll be curious to see more of the details. Will someone playing a fighter still need to track marks and the difference between Combat Superiority and Combat Challenge?

Nevertheless, I do think that doing everything possible to make character generation less intimidating can only help.

I really want to see what Essentials character sheet looks like. It needs to be more like the Encounters and Game Day pregens, and less like a worksheet.

 

[Imaro]

Everything starts with the new Red Box. It's $20, far cheaper than getting the core three for $105. If you like, consider the Red Box a second attempt at the starter set, backed up by the rest of the Essentials line.

How does this relate to what I'm talking about? The $17 blue box starter set was even cheaper than the new one, and backed up by the three hardbacks that cost less than "Essentials" to play... It didn't bring in a flood of new blood

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Not really - if you want to simplify the game, you do two things:
1) Make the characters simpler
2) Make the monsters simpler

So, once we can see what they do with Monster Vault we'll know if they did step 2, but step 1 is absolutely part of it.

I disagree. The fiddly bits are the intricate interactions between Immediate Interrupt and its difference from Opportunity Attack and Immediate Reaction, etc etc etc. None of that is going away. How many times have I had to try to explain to someone that their Opportunity Action doesn't benefit from their bonus to Opportunity Attack rolls? How many 12 yr olds are going to successfully track marks, conditions, and effects by themselves in actual play?

Now, I don't disagree that SOME of that can be mitigated by ditching most powers that apply effects that need tracking, getting rid of niggling subtleties of mechanics of classes like CC and CS on fighters, etc. That will HELP, but the fundamental complexity is in the application of the (already stated not to be changing) core of the rules.

I have spent a good bit of time over the last 2 years answering questions on the WotC 4e Q&A boards. A lot of the same questions come up here too, just with less frequency. There is an unofficial sticky FAQ/quick answer thread there that is up to something like 269 PAGES, plus the Shaman SC FAQ that is 17 page and the Ready an Action FAQ that is 15 pages and another one that I forget the title of that is 112 PAGES. I have literally cranked up a post count there of over 4,000 posts in a year and I'd say a good solid 75% is answering questions. Heck I've slacked off in the last 6 months, so I was answering between 20 and 30 rules inquiries a DAY solid for half a year.

Now a lot of those were on questions about class features and powers that in theory might largely go away in a cleaner class design, but a LOT of them are the same basic questions week after week asking how interrupts work, how CC and CS works, how does Stealth work (big one), etc etc etc. None of those are going to get much clearer with Essentials. Sure, they may be able to clear up the language some, but without breaking compatibility there's only so much you can do. They can issue a whole slew of errata to try to keep the two versions in sync but the fundamental combat mechanics are simply not that easy for people to grasp that aren't already pretty conversant with RPGs and wargames.

So I still have to wonder just how much more accessible you CAN make 4e. Some, certainly, but enough to pull in tons of newbies (especially kids)? I'm not convinced its POSSIBLE let alone that Essentials will do it. BECMI was a pretty darn simple game, even for its time, and kids could easily play it. 4e Essentials is no BECMI, not by an order of magnitude of complexity.