Using Immortals Handbook AND d20 Future

[Mr.Satan]

I'd personally love to see Krusty's 3.5 version of the various Terminators. I'd like to see him create the T-1000, the T-800, and the T-X. They seem to feature prominently in the various material. Some of the HK models might be fun too. I know there is a PDF at Talien's tower, but I tend to think the terminators might be a bit off-balance stat-wise.

I realize he has a lot on his plate already and has been sadly falling so far behind I don't think he'll ever catch up, but maybe he could put this kinda stuff on his site to regenerate interest in his various projects. He kinda needs something to catch 3.5 fan's attentions again. I think they're all drifting off to other things while they wait for something to finally be completed.

I've been watching these forums a while and have loved a lot of the 3.5 material produced so far. Especially Ascension and the superior half-dragons, but I keep seeing a severe lack of product. As a writer I know how things in one's personal life can boggle things down, but I just keep at it and don't let life's distractions stop me.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Ahoy there Mr Satan...and welcome to the boards!

I'd personally love to see Krusty's 3.5 version of the various Terminators. I'd like to see him create the T-1000, the T-800, and the T-X. They seem to feature prominently in the various material. Some of the HK models might be fun too. I know there is a PDF at Talien's tower, but I tend to think the terminators might be a bit off-balance stat-wise.

I don't own d20 future, but I would be shocked if that book didn't have rules for Cyborgs and Robots.

I always remember that Simon (the DM) had 'terminator' like beings running about, though they were actually a bit like bounty hunters in our campaign. Encountered them but never fought them, they were 20HD (IIRC) and had heavy blaster pistols and so forth.

I realize he has a lot on his plate already and has been sadly falling so far behind I don't think he'll ever catch up, but maybe he could put this kinda stuff on his site to regenerate interest in his various projects. He kinda needs something to catch 3.5 fan's attentions again. I think they're all drifting off to other things while they wait for something to finally be completed.

Massively cutting back my hours (on the second job) from the end of this month. If that doesn't start helping progress I may just have to give up altogether.

I certainly intend to have lots more updates to the website, whether those updates will be 3.5E is another matter. I'd prefer them to be 4E, I really hate 3E now, totally disillusioned with it. Hopefully when I start to release some 4E stuff maybe a few of you will be inspired to try it?

Still it might be nice to have some Terminators in there whether 3E or 4E...or both. Though thinking about 3E now I can't even recall how I worked out Golem HD...goes and reads over Epic Bestiary...ah yes.

An Iron Guardian would have 11 Hit Dice. Presumably the Terminator would be some sort of future alloy, stronger than steel but a bit lighter.

I've been watching these forums a while and have loved a lot of the 3.5 material produced so far. Especially Ascension and the superior half-dragons, but I keep seeing a severe lack of product.

Thats 100% my fault.

As a writer I know how things in one's personal life can boggle things down, but I just keep at it and don't let life's distractions stop me.

What I have found is that simply having a few hours here and there is not long to make any serious headway. I can't just stop something one day then immediately pick up where I left off in a few days time, that may be due to a relatively bad (or at least not very good) short term memory I have. I always seem to make better progress when I have at least a week or two at my disposal, which I never really did at this job...until now, fingers crossed.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I was thinking that you could use very similar stat blocks to refer to 3 fairly different sorts of entities: partial cyborgs, full cyborgs, and robots (or armatures). The stats then also vary based off hardness and density... in the first conversion I did, it seemed that while a simple iron (or alumisteel) robot or cyborg would have typically around 1-3 HD, a neutronite (not neutronium, just +5 densities) robot with nanofluidic armor would have 90 or so HD and a CR of 60 or so, and was largely inspired by the Terminatrix.

Once you have the basic build its always easier to extrapolate from that.

What does d20 Future say on the matter?

 

[Alzrius]

I've been watching these forums a while and have loved a lot of the 3.5 material produced so far. Especially Ascension and the superior half-dragons

I'm glad you liked the superior half-dragons. Of the handful of IH material I've written, they're probably what I'm most proud of (possibly notwithstanding my write-up of Death).

Hopefully when I start to release some 4E stuff maybe a few of you will be inspired to try it?

I really wouldn't hold my breath on that, U_K.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Alzrius!

I really wouldn't hold my breath on that, U_K.

I certainly won't be holding my breath on it mate.

That said, I still don't see what the problem some of you have with 4E is? But it is what it is, no big deal, people like what they like.

 

[Belzamus]

I can't speak for anyone else, but my problem is that I don't have a group anymore and am too antisocial to go look for a new one. 3.5 still holds some passing interest for designing my setting, but beyond that, it's just not something I'm into anymore.

 

[Mr.Satan]

I suppose what might be bothering a lot of people is that you kind of abandoned your 3.5 fans. While you might be excited about 4E there are clearly many that really aren't. I don't know who's been purchasing 4E material as of late, but whoever it is doesn't seem to be anyone in my area.

In fact, the overwhelming consensus when it first came out here was..."What?!? ANOTHER system?!? Why?!?" Followed by groans and eventually..."O.k., we'll try it." So...it was tried and tested and found to be greatly wanting. The biggest complaints were a lack of flexibility and separate rules for PCs/NPCs and monsters, and a bad overall feel to it.

Additionally, many people were unhappy with the way celestials and fiends turned out. There were innumerable other gripes as well, but I often heard a lot of..."That's so stupid. Why does this monster have such crap abilities? What about when it's not in combat? What does it do then?"

The jarring combat orientation along with "healing" cheese quickly made many players wonder what the Hell WOTC was thinking. It all just seemed so "mass produced" and "carbon-copied" to us. I'm sure you can think of a million reasons why these opinions might be invalid to you, but 3.5 gamers can counter that 50 times over and then some.

Essentially what it amounts to is a preference for one style of play over another. 3.5'ers want choices, customizability, flexibility, and the ability to create their own "old school style" characters, rather than these MMORPG carbon copies that 4E seems to promote.

A few of your fans have expressed concerns over you selling out, or trying to put on a good front so that WOTC (or some other 4E company) might take you under their wing and make you a tidy profit on your 4E material. I don't buy that myself, but it's been expressed on a few occasions.

I think you made a bad choice by dropping much of your 3.5 product after advertising it, but I don't think you would actually go as far as to sell out. I can understand being burned out on a system like 3.5 that takes so much effort, but many people felt it was worth the effort.

Overall though, the most prevalent reasons 4E seems to be hated, are a severe dislike of the fundamental rules, and the lack of support being shown to 3.5 fans by many of the more interesting game designers. False promises tend to make people rather unhappy.

Anyway, you asked, so...there you have it. That's pretty much the answer as has been given to me by various people over the last few months.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Mr.Satan!

...by the way is that a DragonballZ reference?

I suppose what might be bothering a lot of people is that you kind of abandoned your 3.5 fans.

I apologise to anyone who feels like that. But I couldn't keep designing for a system I no longer enjoyed, nor had any faith in, especially when there was something clearly superior - that solved pretty much all the relevant issues.

While you might be excited about 4E there are clearly many that really aren't. I don't know who's been purchasing 4E material as of late, but whoever it is doesn't seem to be anyone in my area.

Sorry to hear that. Its been my experience that when you play it a few times even naysayers grow to like it - I know thats not carte blanche, but still...

In fact, the overwhelming consensus when it first came out here was..."What?!? ANOTHER system?!? Why?!?" Followed by groans and eventually..."O.k., we'll try it." So...it was tried and tested and found to be greatly wanting. The biggest complaints were a lack of flexibility

You may want to investigate about the new D&D Essentials where flexibility seems to be the new keyword.

Also different classes are no longer so cookie-cutter, something that WotC have been listening to people and have instigated from PHB3.

and separate rules for PCs/NPCs and monsters,

I still don't understand why this is a bad thing...and to be honest they aren't actually that different.

and a bad overall feel to it.

Additionally, many people were unhappy with the way celestials and fiends turned out.

This to me is silly. The celestials and fiends are officially the best they have ever been. The idea that there can be angels of evil gods is really interesting. The differences between Demons and Devils are now FAR more pronounced. The treatment of the Demon Princes is basically the best it has ever been - by a country mile.

Personally I don't personally like Daemons and Slaad in 4E, but then again I haven't liked the official Daemons since 1E and I already changed the Slaad in 3E anyway, tying them to the Far Realm.

...and I suspect my eventual treatment of angels will be a tad better.

There were innumerable other gripes as well, but I often heard a lot of..."That's so stupid. Why does this monster have such crap abilities? What about when it's not in combat? What does it do then?"

...anything the DM wants it to do. No longer is the story constrained to NPC mechanics. Rituals have seen to that.

The jarring combat orientation along with "healing" cheese quickly made many players wonder what the Hell WOTC was thinking.

The mechanic really works well though and its not as if it doesn't have cinematic precedents...you think the hero is down and out only for them to get a second wind...

It all just seemed so "mass produced" and "carbon-copied" to us.

I think thats a fair criticism of the initial books, but I think its definately a trend they have moved away from certainly this year and looking to the future products.

I'm sure you can think of a million reasons why these opinions might be invalid to you, but 3.5 gamers can counter that 50 times over and then some.

I know - you can't please all the people all the time mate.

Essentially what it amounts to is a preference for one style of play over another. 3.5'ers want choices, customizability, flexibility, and the ability to create their own "old school style" characters, rather than these MMORPG carbon copies that 4E seems to promote.

This seems to be what D&D Essentials is geared towards...I know theres also the rumour of the Advanced Player's Handbook next year.

4E isn't simply set in stone, its a lot more fluid than you think. WotC have listened to the initial criticism and adapted a lot of their material accordingly.

People wanted less cookie-cutter classes...so they did that in PHB3 and D&D Essentials.

People wanted more fluff and background in their monster books...so they did that in Monster Manual 3; easily one of the best all-round monster books I have ever read.

People wanted less grind on Paragon and Epic tiers...so they slightly rejigged the math (making it also simpler in the process); early feedback seems to suggest its all tickity-boo again.

People wanted more flexibility on monster design...so they added 'Monster Themes' in DMG2; a bit like quick, mini-templates.

So really, a lot of the criticisms levelled at 4E a few years ago have been eradicated or are in the process of being eradicated.

A few of your fans have expressed concerns over you selling out, or trying to put on a good front so that WOTC (or some other 4E company) might take you under their wing and make you a tidy profit on your 4E material. I don't buy that myself, but it's been expressed on a few occasions.

Thats ridiculous. I moved onto 4E because it can better realise my ideas and its not bogged down with superfluous baggage and shoddy math that falls apart when the game gets epic. I don't support myself with the money I make from these books (even when I eventually release them).

I think you made a bad choice by dropping much of your 3.5 product after advertising it,

Thats certainly regrettable, I would have wanted to release more 3.5E material back in the day. My enthusiasm outstrips my workrate unfortunately.

but I don't think you would actually go as far as to sell out.

Thanks...though I think its fairly apparent now (even if it wasn't before) I haven't sold out.

I can understand being burned out on a system like 3.5 that takes so much effort, but many people felt it was worth the effort.

It wasn't even that it took so much effort as much as the whole system was a mathmatical 'house of cards' just waiting to collapse.

Overall though, the most prevalent reasons 4E seems to be hated, are a severe dislike of the fundamental rules, and the lack of support being shown to 3.5 fans by many of the more interesting game designers. False promises tend to make people rather unhappy.

I think maybe because it was such a radical change that it has taken many fans a while to get comfortable with it.

As for more interesting game designers (present company accepted I trust ), certainly the GSL has been a problem for some, theres no denying it.

But for me, Pathfinder solved absolutely nothing (beyond keeping 3E going, which was obviously the main goal).

Anyway, you asked, so...there you have it. That's pretty much the answer as has been given to me by various people over the last few months.

Thanks for being so candid.

 

[Mr.Satan]

...by the way is that a DragonballZ reference?

Yes, yes it is.

Thanks for being so candid.

All that you've said thus far merely seems like opinionated speculation. You haven't actually said much that was anything other than opinion. 4E isn't "clearly superior" at all. That alone is pure opinion. Your words remind me greatly of the words often spoken by fanatical converts to various religions or car salesmen.

Can you offer any counterpoints that aren't purely opinion-based?

Not meaning to be insulting, but I'm generally a "just the facts" kinda guy. While I express my opinions, I try not to treat them as fact. I'm almost surprised that you almost seem to be shoving 4E down the collective throats of the masses. I hope I'm just reading too much into your statements, but that is how it comes across.

 

[BrokeAndDrive]

-you almost seem to be shoving 4E down the collective throats of the masses.

Maybe he just really likes 4e.


I see this...

-but I'm generally a "just the facts" kinda guy.

...then I see this...

I suppose what might be bothering a lot of people-

-clearly many that really aren't.

-many people were unhappy-

-but many people felt-

...and my Irony Alarm blares. You'd think a "just the facts" guy would avoid appeal-to-majority fallacies, especially when such claims are uncited (then demanding your "opponent" to cite... do as I say and not as I do indeed).

-or trying to put on a good front so that WOTC-

And now we have a conspiracy theory. Honestly, I prefer to think of Ye Olde Kruste as a shapeshifting lizardman. That would be ass-bad.


Actually, I'm going to stop here. If I continue, it's just going to turn into a flame war. It's obvious you're here looking for a fight, and if this were a less civil forum I would gladly oblige you. Perhaps worse can be done than taking a few days off to cool your head so you don't sound like this guy? Or at least not fit squarely into an archetype?


I'll just say: when it comes to monster and character making, 3x is like legos, and 4e is like play doh. Some people prefer one or the other -- and some like me *gasp* likes both! -- without investing illogical emotional attachments to either.