Unarmed Defender: How Would You Build It?

[bganon]

Not to sound shallow, but what kind of DPS will I be putting out with a brawler? Like Adrastus said, I can fluff the gauntlets as fists. Still what matters is not that the fists are equipped or not, so long as the action is going to be fist-based.

Oh and yes, this will be a Warforged.

Honestly, brawler DPS is pretty poor (especially for a Fighter). Spiked gauntlets are only +2 prof with d6 damage (Brutal Brawler increases this to d8). But damage isn't really the point of the Brawler build; it's really about a kind of melee "control". You'll have numerous attacks which auto-grab on a hit, some inescapable grabs, and forced movement like crazy. Your DPS comes from grabbing monsters and shoving them into the Rogue's dagger.

Another note: the build suggests Dex secondary, but you don't really have to do it. You can stay with Combat Superiority instead of Combat Agility, and plenty of brawler powers don't use Dex.

 

[DracoSuave]

Honestly, brawler DPS is pretty poor (especially for a Fighter). Spiked gauntlets are only +2 prof with d6 damage (Brutal Brawler increases this to d8). But damage isn't really the point of the Brawler build; it's really about a kind of melee "control". You'll have numerous attacks which auto-grab on a hit, some inescapable grabs, and forced movement like crazy. Your DPS comes from grabbing monsters and shoving them into the Rogue's dagger.

Another note: the build suggests Dex secondary, but you don't really have to do it. You can stay with Combat Superiority instead of Combat Agility, and plenty of brawler powers don't use Dex.

Well, Dexterity does go hand in hand with a guy who does martial pugilism. Just saying... even a big oaf like Brock Lesnar's a pretty damn agile guy when you get down to it.

That said, yeah, you're not gonna have the highest DPR... but with Slash and Pummel, it's actually not that bad. That attack allows you to double dip into your Strength bonus for damage, making it potentially 1[W]+Str+3+Str damage at level 1. It's not a Twin-Strike ranger, but it's not something to dismiss so easily.

 

[Klaus]

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 1
Half-Orc, Fighter
Fighter: Combat Agility
Fighter Talents: Tempest Technique

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 12, Dex 17, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 17, Con 12, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8.


AC: 17 Fort: 16 Reflex: 14 Will: 10
HP: 27 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +6, Endurance +7, Athletics +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Arcana, Bluff -1, Diplomacy -1, Dungeoneering, Heal, History, Insight, Nature, Perception, Religion, Stealth +2, Streetwise -1, Thievery +2

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Slash and Pummel (+7 vs. AC, 1d6+3 dmg; +7 vs. Reflex, 7 damage)
Fighter at-will 1: Dual Strike (+7 vs. AC, 1d6+3 dmg, two targets)
Fighter encounter 1: Distracting Spate (+7 vs. AC, 2d6+10 dmg, target grants CAdv)
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance (+7 vs. AC, 1d6+7 dmg, shift 1 square and repeat vs. different creature, then shift again and repeat again; +9 vs. AC, 1d6+10 with CAdv)

ITEMS
Hide Armor, Spiked gauntlet (2)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

 

[ourchair]

Well, Dexterity does go hand in hand with a guy who does martial pugilism. Just saying... even a big oaf like Brock Lesnar's a pretty damn agile guy when you get down to it.

That said, yeah, you're not gonna have the highest DPR... but with Slash and Pummel, it's actually not that bad. That attack allows you to double dip into your Strength bonus for damage, making it potentially 1[W]+Str+3+Str damage at level 1. It's not a Twin-Strike ranger, but it's not something to dismiss so easily.

That build is great. Where would you take it at Level 5, which is the starting level for our upcoming campaign?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I, too, was going to suggest a grappler. Ninjad!

But what about a Dex based defender who concentrates on marking foes, trips & feints? Yeah, I know- not in the game.

 

[Mengu]

That said, yeah, you're not gonna have the highest DPR... but with Slash and Pummel, it's actually not that bad. That attack allows you to double dip into your Strength bonus for damage, making it potentially 1[W]+Str+3+Str damage at level 1. It's not a Twin-Strike ranger, but it's not something to dismiss so easily.

I don't think you add strength twice. It's a 1[W] for the first attack and 3+Str for the second attack. So if both attacks hit, 1[W]+3+Str damage. It's a little better than a basic attack, but not by that much (due to the second miss chance). It does get better at higher levels if you can inflict vulnerabilities, or do fancy stuff on a crit.

 

[bganon]

Yes, Slash and Pummel is only 1[W] with the primary, and 3+Str on the followup. Also, because the followup requires another attack roll AND only triggers if the first attack hits, the DPR for the whole thing can as low as a basic attack if the monster's defenses are high enough. The problem is worst at the end of Paragon, actually, because +3 becomes increasingly negligible compared to the STR bonus. Compare to Cleave, which is basically 1[W]+Str+Str if the primary (only) attack hits, but the damage is spread around.

In fact, even at level 1 with 18 STR it's only better than Reaping Strike even one-handed if your miss chance is less than roughly 40% or so (details depend on monster Reflex relative to AC, but this is typical). Basically the biggest up-side to Slash and Pummel is that it's the only way for a Fighter to crit-fish a single target. It's good during the Heroic tier against low-Reflex monsters. But a Fighter that cares only about DPR is going to go Greatweapon with a fullblade.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It's just a shame that the battlemind isn't an implement class like the monk...

 

[DracoSuave]

But a Fighter that cares only about DPR is going to

be a Barbarian?

 

[ourchair]

But a Fighter that cares only about DPR is going to go Greatweapon with a fullblade.

I don't only care about DPR, but it is one of my higher considerations. My intent is not to aim for striker level damage with piles of bonuses -- defenders don't do that as well as other roles/classes -- but at least have a respectable base damage score.

I had a Warforged Warden that dealt 1d10 as his weapon base and my Dragonborn Fighter deals 2d6 Brutal damage, so I'm obviously not trying to minmax their damage, but I don't like running around with d6s and d8s unless I have a meaningful static bonus to complement it.

Still, I'm pretty fine with the Brawler Fighter concept if it means lockdown with a grab flavor to it.