Did WotC underestimate the Paizo effect on 4E?

[ggroy]

I think Piazo has gained quite a bit of folks who have "tried it, didn't like it" and that it may be gaining momentum as people find 4E doesn't meet their expectations.

Of course, folks may do the same eventually with Pathfinder - it's just approaching it's 6-month birthday.

It's already at its 1-year birthday.

(Pathfinder was first released at Gencon 2009).

 

[Keefe the Thief]

If only WotC would have given us the ability to purchase a mule in the PHB. Then 4e would have been perfect and we wouldn't be having discussions like this. Oh, WotC! How can you be so cruel!

WHERE IS YOU GOD NOW?​

 

[Fifth Element]

Really? I didn't want that drama? Then why was I playing a D&D game which has always had save or die moments? Does WotC think I was somehow not choosing to play of my own free will? It's a bit patronizing. So was the grappling video. Those are ways not to say it.

Easy answer: like me, you played D&D despite those things, because you enjoyed the rest of it enough to put up with them. They're certainly not speaking to everyone with every quote, but that would be impossible.

 

[Wicht]

The threads getting back off track again if we are reduced to once more arguing about whether people felt insulted by the WotC Marketing. Short answer: some people did find it insulting; some did not. If you did not; you are not going to convince others they were not insulted. Nor will you make any friends by doing so. So why bother arguing about it.

 

[Wicht]

Even if we limit ourselves to properties represented in RPGs, companies like Games Workshop, White Wolf and WotC have honest-to-goodness media franchises. They've developed them through video games, novels, comics, etc. Paizo is obviously doing well within their niche, but it's a small niche, and it's their whole business.

Paizo is still a relatively new player, it is true. They have had their game out for 1 year. Of course they don't have a huge media franchise yet. But that doesn't really mean anything concerning their success, their future, nor how many books they are selling.

Dungeons and Dragons did not start out with a huge media franchise and the full power of Hasbro behind it. It started out as a small game, spread by word of mouth.

Warhammer didn't release video games their first year either. Nor did WoD. Nor did they begin their games with a full court press of comics, novels and the like. Those things came later. Companies tend to start out small, and generally focused on a few core products. As these products gain support then they expand.

Paizo is growing with Pathfinder. There does not seem any doubt about that. Where they end up is anyone's guess. But to dismiss them because they don't yet have a video game released for their product is rather naive. And, in case you missed it, the Novels are being released as we speak.

 

[Imaro]

Easy answer: like me, you played D&D despite those things, because you enjoyed the rest of it enough to put up with them. They're certainly not speaking to everyone with every quote, but that would be impossible.

But then doesn't this beg the question of... if there are tons of fantasy rpg's that don't have save or die (or numerous other things unique to D&D), why not go play one of those?

 

[Maggan]

I'll voice what might be a minority voice here (but that's ok, since it is MY minority voice! ).

We were all geared up for Pathfinder. But until it was released we decided to test D&D4e, and after that most of the group didn't want to continue with a 3.5 derived set of rules be it D&D3.5 or Pathfinder.

So I bought the Pathfinder core rule book because I promised to so here on EN World, but my group have played D&D4e exclusively. One DM has tried to get a Kingmaker campaign going without much luck. We're having too much fun with D&D4e.

So you could say that WotC snatched us from Pathfinder.

/M

 

[Fifth Element]

But then doesn't this beg the question of... if there are tons of fantasy rpg's that don't have save or die (or numerous other things unique to D&D), why not go play one of those?

I answered this in my previous post already. Overall, 3.5 was my favoured game. That doesn't mean I thought it was perfect, or couldn't be improved. I don't refuse to play a system just because it has a few things I don't like, if it has a lot of things I do like.

 

[Jor-El]

I think a lot of our opinions are definately skewed by our system/company preference.

I don't think WoTC underestimated anything, other than maybe the current economy. WoTC's biggest competition, like someone mentioned upthread, is other forms of entertainment.

One thing to keep in mind, is that the scales are totally different for WotC and Paizo (and any other RPG company). No doubt they vastly outsell all other product lines, but what's considered success for them? Certainly not the same thing as what is for Pathfinder.

I'm a Paizo guy, I prefer Pathfinder, and don't really spend any money on WoTC products anymore, but I'm under no illusion that Pathfinder has suddenly gobbled up a large percentage of the RPG market. They just serve a really small niche of what is a niche industry.

WoTC is in kind of a no win situation, in that they're almost too big for the D&D brand to be SUPER sucessful. The market for D&D just isn't there the way it is for MTG or was for Pokemon. At least not there for the kind of profits the bean counters really want. Ultimately I think the management of WoTC needs to adjust its expectations for the Brand, and realize that they are making tons more money than any other RPG company, and be happy with that, and that they're never going to make WOW style profits, or be able to compete with the video game industry.

All IMHO of course!

 

[ggroy]

I don't think WoTC underestimated anything, other than maybe the current economy.

Not many pundits anticipated the economic meltdown of late-2008 and the subsequent aftermath, with the exception of the "permabears" who are always screaming "the sky is falling" anyways. A broken clock is always right, two times every day.