Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[Reynard]

If you have no reason to expect a medusa and start to try fighting it straight on then you only know you effed up when other people turn to stone. The first PC to be hit did not eff up - he took the most sensible course of action available and was killed by a DM "Gotcha".

It'd be better if you actually read and responded to the actual example. Verdande didn't say a medusa jumped out of a closet and boom! killed the PCs with its gaze. he said the fighter was going toe to toe with the medusa without precautions. There's no "gotcha" -- there's a player who either doesn't understand the potential consequences, or doesn't care. In either case, they're stone.

If you're charging across an open field and a death god's priest casts Disintegrate on you, that's par for the course. Anything else leads to either banning the disintegrate spell or the only effective characters being those that can disintegrate dragons - eggshells armed with sledgehammers playing russian roulette. (Or, come to think of it, adding a long casting time to Disintegrate - so if you don't dodge for 30 seconds you die).

Huh?

If you kick down a door in a dungeon and poison gas starts to flood the room, that's damn poor dungeon design (poison gas + open room -> dispersed gas; and poison gas + dungeon -> gas throughout the dungeon slightly hurting every monster that breathes down there) and the architect should probably die.

You're dodging the question by invoking "bad design".

 

[BryonD]

I agree. I much prefer the 4E medusa, for example, where you're first slowed, then immobilized, then petrified as you fail saves. That builds up tension, and does a good job of modeling being gradually overcome by the effect.

As I understand it, Pathfinder made save-or-suck effects akin to hold person, where the victim gets a save every round. That's also a decided improvement; one failed save doesn't keep you out of the encounter entirely.

You can see my opinion on medusa in my sig.

Suffice it to say, I really have no interest in the 4E approach. It isn't really about "fear" so much as "fun.

In the myth, if you see Medusa you turn to stone. Not even "save or die", just do it and die. That is scary. The tension exists in the prospect of facing such a terrible threat. If you meet the gaze of medusa becoming slowed does not increase tension, to me, it just reveals that there is no simulation present here. It proves that you are playing a tactical boardgame in which getting the story right has been completely set aside. I don't see "oh my god, I've been slowed by a medusa, this is getting tense." I see:"whew, I saw Medusa, but it was a sub-medusa, I'm still here." The tactical situation may be more precarious than it was. So there is certainly gamist tension. But the dramatic tension is absent.

In PF, medusas are unchanged. Several of the the forms of petrification have been given simple outs. I prefer 3E versions. But, it is important to note that the PF versions do a much better job of sticking to a story idea.

For example, the basilisk is still save or die, but basilisk blood is a cure.

 

[jaerdaph]

It looks, quacks, and walks like a duck:

If it falls like a duck in lava, it dies (no save).

 

[Kaiyanwang]

In PF, medusas are unchanged. Several of the the forms of petrification have been given simple outs. I prefer 3E versions. But, it is important to note that the PF versions do a much better job of sticking to a story idea.

For example, the basilisk is still save or die, but basilisk blood is a cure.

My impression, reading the bestiary, is that you are less likely to get a SoD at low levels, and very likely at highs. And low leves SoDs hit less harder and is easier to cure them without Clerical Bend-aid.

BTW, the basilisk blood thing is just BRILLIANT. The fight is scary, but if adventurers survive, it's possible to take them back. But vae victis.

 

[El Mahdi]

How about:

PC is walking through a forest, is surprised by a poisonous snake (AD&D) and bitten.

What stupid thing has he done?

Funny how everyone takes their examples to ridiculous extremes. Even the medusa example. How did I know there was a medusa nearby? Does every medusa need to be a mental cripple and leave evidence of her presence?...

Agreed 100%...and where's the Heroism in such scenarios? What if the DM (Athena) hadn't provided Perseus (the PC) with his nice shiny shield?

Imagine Perseus having to make a saving throw against the Gorgon (Medusa) and failing...end of story, no Heroism for you (and by extension, no Hercules either). Thanks for playing Perseus. Why don't you go sit over in the corner with Odysseus (he failed his save with the Sirens), and work on making a new character. Name the next one Aeneas and see if you have better luck next game session...

Save-or-Die only works when it's rare, the DM has provided the tools or clues necessary to deal with it, and a failed result can still be portrayed in a Heroic manner. Otherwise, IMO, Save-or-Die simply Sucks!

 

[El Mahdi]

If it falls like a duck in lava, it dies (no save).

Of course! But it's also the DM's job to provide "the Duck" all the tools it needs to avoid falling in the lava in the first place.

Also, what you're talking about isn't a Save-or-Die situation. You're talking about "You're Dead-No Save".

I just happen to be watching Star Wars at the moment, so how about these for examples:

Luke has just lost his hand to Vaders lightsaber, and been told that Vader's his father. Rather than give in and surrender to Vader, Luke takes the only real option left open to him...a Heroic and Honourable option...he let's go and simply falls...

The DM decides that instead of just splatting (Save-or-Die) at the end of his fall (cause where's the cool Heroism in that?), he has Luke fall into a ventilation tube and slow down as he slides through it's twists and turns (battered but still alive). But, the DM isn't done with him and wants to keep the tension going, so he has a vent door open just beneath where Luke has come to rest:

DM: Luke, make a Reflex save to grab the antenna...

Luke: Damn! I rolled a five...I missed!

DM: too bad...your dead. So much for redeeming your father and destroying the Evil Galactic Empire. As your body falls into the gas planet of Bespin and is slowly crushed by the increasing atmospheric pressure, you get a flash of the future from the Force. You see the Rebellion crushed, your friends dead, your Father completely lost to Evil, and the Galaxy eventually fully corrupted by the Emperor. Pity.

OR​

​

DM: Luke, make a Reflex save to grab the antenna...

Luke: Damn! I rolled a five...I missed!

DM: Yes...you miss grabbing the antenna with your remaining good hand...but, you land on a crossbar in a seated position and then fall backwards, barely hooking your legs over it and stopping your fall. You're now hanging upside down and can feel the antenna groaning and threatening to break free... What do you do now?

OR​

​

DM: Luke, make a Reflex save to grab the antenna...

Luke: Okay, I realise that If I miss this I'm quite likely dead, so I'm going to use an Action Point for a bonus on the roll...Okay, I roll a five, but with my bonus from the Actio Point I have a 15...just made it!

DM: Yup, you just made it, so...you miss grabbing the antenna with your remaining good hand...but, you land on a crossbar in a seated position and then fall backwards, barely hooking your legs over it and stopping your fall. You're now hanging upside down and can feel the antenna groaning and threatening to break free... What do you do now?



Also, using the Lava example, imagine what Star Wars Episode III (Revenge of the Sith), and all the remaining stories (the originals), would have been like if Anakin had needed to make a Save-or-Die roll for falling into lava:


DM: Anakin, you fall after a devastating hit from Obi Wan. You've fallen into the edge of the Lava lake! Make a save...

Anakin: Rolled a 2...Damn, I missed!

DM: Sorry, you're dead. Without your support, Palpatine is now unable to fend off the remaining Jedi Knights, and his Empire fails before really getting started. The Jedi now face the challenge of restoring a Republic Senate in tatters...

OR​

​

DM: Anakin, you fall after a devastating hit from Obi Wan. You've fallen into the edge of the Lava lake! Make a save...

Anakin: Rolled a 2...Damn, I missed!

DM: Yup, you missed. As you slide into the lava lake you feel the intense heat begin to burn your limbs away. The pain is phenomenally intense. Only your hatred and the power of the Dark Side keep you from succumbing to unconsciousness and inevitable death. The pain and hate solidifies your focus to someday see Obi Wan dead at your feet...even as he pulls your ravaged body away from certain death. From this moment on you are no longer Anakin Skywalker - you are Darth Vader...and you will have your revenge!



I know which one's I would choose as the cooler option...

 

[I'm A Banana]

In the myth, if you see Medusa you turn to stone. Not even "save or die", just do it and die. That is scary. The tension exists in the prospect of facing such a terrible threat. If you meet the gaze of medusa becoming slowed does not increase tension, to me, it just reveals that there is no simulation present here.

I take a slightly different tack.

If I look at the Medusa and I don't turn to stone instantly, it means I am more powerful than Perseus! Which is awesome! Sure, now the medusa is not as big of a threat, but wait until you fight the whole Medusas-Mounted-On-Basilisks-with-Stone-Golem-Allies Armada! That sort of wahoo is stuff D&D can embrace!

Because, ultimately, myths are very binary. That's part of their appeal, part of how they are told and passed down, but they are, nonetheless. Achilles is invincible unless hit in a specific spot. The Werewolf is invincible unless hit with a specific weapon. Vampires will kick your but have a few specific weaknesses.

Generally, that makes for less-than-satisfying gameplay, however. Especially if, like the myths, you're being very narrative about your game, and you value characters that have continuity.

So your characters, at least, are exceptions to the binary rule. They could kill a werewolf without silver. They're just that badass.

 

[Reynard]

Agreed 100%...and where's the Heroism in such scenarios?

The Heroes are the ones who make it. The character that lives to 2nd level is a bigger hero than the one that dies 10 XP from 2nd level. The character that lives to be 5th level is more heroic than the 2nd level character, and so on. RPG characters are not like characters from books or movies or even myths: their fates are not yet written. Whether they are noble heroes or die ignobly on the points of kobold punji sticks is yet to be determined.

 

[jaerdaph]

Also, using the Lava example, imagine what Star Wars Episode III (Revenge of the Sith), and all the remaining stories (the originals), would have been like if Anakin had needed to make a Save-or-Die roll for falling into lava:

Well, I have it from a very reliable source^1 that George Lucas said what we see in Episode III is not lava^2 but is in fact plasma, thus we get Darth Vader instead of Anakin dead (no save).

1. Some guy who changed the oil for the mailman that delivered the invitation for a wedding where one of the guests once met the former housekeeper for George Lucas at Skywalker Ranch.

2. Or magma. Or superheated rock.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Imagine Perseus having to make a saving throw against the Gorgon (Medusa) and failing...end of story, no Heroism for you (and by extension, no Hercules either). Thanks for playing Perseus. Why don't you go sit over in the corner with Odysseus (he failed his save with the Sirens), and work on making a new character. Name the next one Aeneas and see if you have better luck next game session...

The question is: was Perseus a destined to be a legendary hero before he defeated Medusa or did he come to be viewed as a legendary after he defeated her and had legends written about him? What about all the poor schmucks who went before him and had their faces petrified? They may well have been heroic, but they didn't become Legendary Heroes.

To my mind, it really depends on how the group views the PCs in the context of the campaign.

Is it automatically assumed from the get go that the PCs are grand heroes, destined to become legends and sung of by bards for a thousand years? Then eliminate SoDs, etc, because the story is about heroes who will be celebrated long after their time, and are the antithesis of the anticlimax. Viewed this way, Perseus was born to be a legend, selected by the Fates to follow a destiny of great deeds and heroism. No save or die for Perseus, because he still has more Things of Consequence to accomplish in life!

Or, on the other hand, is the assumption that only select PCs will join the ranks of the legendary heroes, that only the canniest, or most cautious, or strongest, or most gifted, or simply luckiest will make it? In this case, keep the SoDs, etc, in and let the dice fall where they may so that an unwritten destiny selects the long-lived heros. Viewed like this, Perseus made the gamble-- with a little help!-- and became the luckiest schmuck among many. And that's the only reason we remember him and not poor old Bob the Ambitious who took on Medusa the week before. Perseus made his save, while Bob did not-- and Bob's player had to roll up a new character.

Either approach is perfectly good, and is purely dependent upon the type of game the group wants.