Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[I'm A Banana]

RE: The Medusa.

In FFZ, the medusa does have a "save or die" effect: she can petrify a character basically by deciding to do it.

And then you've got three friends who can all make it better with a simple potion.

If the enemies and allies are matched (1 for 1), then there's a chance that it becomes a TPK. Of course, even a TPK isn't that big of a deal in FFZ (it sucks, but it's certainly not the end of the game). The way to avoid that TPK is to prepare yourself ahead of time by finding, buying, or making things that will prevent that status from sticking, or that will prevent the medusa from using her ability to turn you to stone.

I'm not sure that's fit for D&D, but I find it's a very workable solution in this case.

I think, for D&D, I like the "gradually worsening conditions" aspect, and just saying that the D&D characters you play are badass enough to overcome it momentarily, while basic nobodies are instantly transformed.

I'm also a bit of a fan of "damage with special effect at 0 hp," though I haven't seen a lot of that. Meet the Medusa's gaze, and you take damage as your body turns slowly to stone, and if it reduces you to 0 hp, you become petrified, but if you're not at 0 hp, you don't need to worry about it. This makes HP more of an arbiter of "when things go wrong" then saves or anything does.

 

[Lanefan]

Gotta agree with that. And of course, Stone to Flesh forces a true save or die, though there's still Break Enchantment.

Personally, Save or Die effects in the 3e mold are on my game no-no list. Its the kind of thing where I'll walk out of the game and just not come back. They don't inspire fear in me, just absolute unfun. I've had too many situations of showing up then sitting out for the rest of the night having rolled a single die to fail a saving throw.

I've said it many times, but here's once more:

The way to beat this is to play more than one character. And the deadlier the game, the more essential this becomes.

That way, you still have something to do when (not if) one of 'em dies, gets turned to stone, gets paralyzed, or whatever.

Lan-"if both go down at once, you're just unlucky"-efan

 

[Chainsaw]

So I'm seeing a thread where a few GMs are like, "Save or Die and other effects like level drain are essential to spread fear into the player base!"

And I'm curious if the old informal poll backs those numbers.

In games I've played, if you're rolling save or die, then you've already done something really, really stupid and you're getting a last chance to survive. I think of it as a gift, actually. A chance that I might be OK despite doing something idiotic. I'm sure that's not the case with everyone. I'm sure many people have suffered occasions of the mechanic being abused all to hell. Time for a new DM!

"So, we walk into the tavern, sit down and have a beer."
"Save or die!"
"WTF?!?"
"Yeah, you didn't inspect the beer first to notice it was acid."

Edit: I voted yes as a player.

 

[El Mahdi]

..."Yeah, you didn't inspect the beer first to notice it was acid."

That's just wrong on so many levels. The foremost being it's a crime against Humanity to mess with BEER!

 

[JoeGKushner]

I've said it many times, but here's once more:

The way to beat this is to play more than one character. And the deadlier the game, the more essential this becomes.

That way, you still have something to do when (not if) one of 'em dies, gets turned to stone, gets paralyzed, or whatever.

Lan-"if both go down at once, you're just unlucky"-efan

Doesn't work too well in games like Hero or 4e where the increase in players is a massive increase in combat time.

On the other hand, despite the complexity of Rolemaster in terms of critical hits, due to those critical hits, it can work wonders.

 

[Psion]

Yes, with caveats. In 4e terms, I think it should only be for solo creatures. It shouldn't be spammed through an adventure like packs of bodaks or half-basilisk lizardmen (to cite something from an actual 3rd party adventure.)

Facing a villain with a powerful attack like this is a great source of tension, but can't be used naively. You need a bit of foreshadowing, and should reserve the villain for a dramatic point in the game.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I voted yes as as DM but I also vote the same as a player. The mechanic cuts both ways and provides extra drama and excitement. I play the game for the awesome moments and SOD helps to provide more of them.

 

[Lanefan]

A slow death is drastically scarier then a sudden one.

Drastically more annoying, too. If my character's gonna die, just get on with it and kill him. Nothing's worse than watching for several rounds in full knowledge my character is dying and nobody can save him.

Right now, D&D is still wrestling with wether it's high flying adventure! or Grim and gritty sword and sorcery. People who generally like saving throws prefer the second option, where life is cheap, death is common, and there are no true heroes.

Yes there are. The heroes, as others have mentioned, are the ones that survive.

If a town is being menaced by a gang of Orcs and our intrepid crew goes out to take down said Orcs; if I'm the only survivor who comes staggering bloodstained back into town with (demonstrably accurate) news the Orcs are all dead, I'm going to be the hero. It's just that simple.

When Perseus fought medusa, there weren't any dice being rolled.

With all this talk about Perseus, I find it somewhat fitting that my game's current iron man (i.e. longest-surviving character) is named Perseus...and that thus far in his career he/his party have met and defeated at least two Medusae...

Lan-"however, others in his party have not always been so lucky"-efan

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Drastically more annoying, too. If my character's gonna die, just get on with it and kill him. Nothing's worse than watching for several rounds in full knowledge my character is dying and nobody can save him.

You're assuming the death is certain, which tells me you have no idea how 4e save effects work.

Yes there are. The heroes, as others have mentioned, are the ones that survive.

You misunderstand.

Look at the sword and sorcery style gameplay where this is most evident or in the literature. The characters aren't "heroes," though they are protagonists. They aren't guided by morality or the desire to do good. The standard dungeon crawl came purely out of "There's treasure in there, go get it."

It's interesting, because each edition leans more towards adventure over grim and grittiness. As alignment became more codified, it was more excepted that adventurers were such for reasons of morality rather then pure greed. Settings became more complex and filled in, which in turn gave rise to bigger and more complex backstories to characters. Character options grew, as did both the ability to and the desire to fully customize your character beyond just "fighting man" or "wizard."

If a town is being menaced by a gang of Orcs and our intrepid crew goes out to take down said Orcs; if I'm the only survivor who comes staggering bloodstained back into town with (demonstrably accurate) news the Orcs are all dead, I'm going to be the hero. It's just that simple.

That has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

With all this talk about Perseus, I find it somewhat fitting that my game's current iron man (i.e. longest-surviving character) is named Perseus...and that thus far in his career he/his party have met and defeated at least two Medusae...

Lan-"however, others in his party have not always been so lucky"-efan

All this talk about literary characters in general are interesting, because protagonists in general don't die in books, at least not until the very end climax. If they do die before then, they're typically brought back to life. Having a group go through dozens of characters falling like rats doesn't fit any literary tropes.

 

[Reynard]

Having a group go through dozens of characters falling like rats doesn't fit any literary tropes.

Which is good, since role-playing game sessions are not a form of literature. Now, the recounting of those sessions might be, and if so theTPK could very well qualify as a "literary trope" -- perhaps of a satire or a horror story, for example.

My point is this: story happens after the game, when the events of the game are recounted. During play, it's just the game, and one of the possible outcomes of the game is every character ending up ground meat on a dungeon floor, or worse. Another outcome is them saving the world, getting the girl and ascending to godhood.

Let's see which story we're telling this week, shall we?