Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[Plane Sailing]

Of course, if the Outlaw Josey Wales were a D&D character, he'd probably not be 1st or 2nd level, so he'd have to empty his six shooter into the average monster before he'd have a chance at killing it . . .

Which is why I can't quite like d20 Modern; gimme GURPS or SW or SR or something like that, please. Let everyone be vulnerable to the gun (or sword, or spell).

Don't forget that d20 modern has a low massive damage threshold, thus making more things vulnerable to single bullets.

Or is that too SoD?

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'd really prefer a Will Save to control the urge to glance.

But, regardless, in situations of this type I always describe a "save" as having avoided ever meeting the gaze. If you see Medusa in my game, you turn to stone.

Me too.

In fact, back in 1e days I rejigged the saving throw table, giving a distinct line for every character class, and putting in a wider range of potential saving throw causes. Each cause had a base save at level 1, and the number improved by 1 every two levels. The one with the biggest variance was 'Save vs Gaze', and thieves were brilliant at this (because they were really used to not making eye contact) while paladins were lousy (because their nature is to stare back proudly and bravely!)

Cheers

 

[Doug McCrae]

The idea that SoD creatures should only be used in very specific circumstances where the PC's have ample opportunity to prepare themselves isn't supported by the rules. Quite the opposite in fact. SoD creatures are meant to be used as Aha Gotcha monsters when the players are least prepared. Whether it's monsters like Rot Grubs and Green Slime or intelligent stuff, older versions of the game were chockablock with this sort of thing.

I think you're right. There are plenty of SoD critters in the wandering monster tables in the DMG.

This pivoting stone portal will always swing open to the left, giving egress to an area guarded by a basilisk. However, if a second hidden stud is found (1 % chance), then it will pivot to the right and allow entry to a chamber containing a magical fountain.

- 1e DMG pg 217

The medusa entry in the 1e MM seems designed as a gotcha too. The range at which the medusa can be distinguished as not a shapely human is less than or equal to the range of her gaze attack. Seems quite deliberate.

The gaze of a medusa's eyes will turn creatures within 3" [ie 30ft indoors] to stone unless they make their save versus petrification.
...
the face is of horrid visage, and its snakey hair writhes, so at a close distance (20') this gives the creature away. The glaring red-rimmed eyes of a medusa are visible clearly at 30'.

Should've used your spyglass, noob! Actually what's up with that? Her red-rimmed eyes are visible at longer range than her head full of snakes? That seems a bit odd.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Where I accept that it happens sometimes. (my personal record, which *was* excessive: I once sat through 6 sessions (!) waiting for the party to find my character in a dungeon; they missed the room where he was shackled to a table on their way in, went through the entire adventure and found him on their way out! And I didn't have a pre-existing character in that party...)

Silly DM! Should have just had him shackled to the wall/floor/table in the next appropriate room which was visited, rather than write it on a map and shake their head when the party didn't open the correct door!

 

[FireLance]

Silly DM! Should have just had him shackled to the wall/floor/table in the next appropriate room which was visited, rather than write it on a map and shake their head when the party didn't open the correct door!

I'm 50% sure there's a joke about Schrodinger's shackling in here somewhere.

 

[wedgeski]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm a DM and voted against save or die. I've seen what it can do to a game, I can see the misery it can cause a player who loses a long-running PC to an out-of-the-blue effect, and in this referee's opinion, it ain't worth it.

For the record, I also think that 4E's multi-save death spiral is a brilliant solution to the problem.

Now having said all that, I have no problem with save or die's that are telegraphed in advance, so that the PC's have a chance to plan accordingly. That's exactly the right kind of jeopardy IMO.

 

[vagabundo]

AGAINST.

The senate has spoken. The law has been struck down!

Senatus Populus ENworldus..

 

[hazel monday]

I am pro-fun.

I am pro-excitement.

I am pro-save or die.

I am the greatest DM of all time and I endorse this message.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Weren't there three Gorgons? I've never heard the version where there was only one.

Three gorgons; one Medusa.

I am pro-fun.

I am pro-excitement.

I am pro-save or die.

I am the greatest DM of all time and I endorse this message.

Hey! I may also be pro-fun, and I may also be pro-excitement. I may even also be pro-save or die. But I'm no......What was that last thing?

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Something that occurred to me recently regarding the "storyness" part of the debate:

We get save-or-dies from stories. Medusa's petrifying gaze is a story elements, and like all story elements is under complete control of the storyteller. "One glance, you're stone, no save other than maybe looking away at the last moment" is fine in a story, but should it have been translated that way into a game? In its original version is was designed to work with the plot protection "mechanic". Is it really such a good idea to translate one story element over without translating over whatever else it was designed to work best with?