New Neverwinter Nights Game Probably On Its Way

[ProfessorCirno]

I don't really keep track of who made what game, but my experience doesn't quite match this.

NWN2 is an ok story, with some especially weak plot justifications for the railroading, and an absolutely terrible ending. Mask of the Betrayer is a much stronger story, but I still didn't feel it had the emotional depth that NWN1 (and Hordes of the Underdark) had. Some good plot elements, but not quite on the level of Planescape: Torment.

Edit: Though, in retrospect, my feelings on MotB may have been tainted by the transition from NWN2, where I liked the story most of the way, and rather wanted to continue it rather than having pretty much all my former connections cut away in a new game.

I cannot even begin to understand how NWN1 could be said to have had "emotional depth." It was probably one of the more terrible single player experiences I've had

As for Mask of the Betrayer, I don't think it's really possible to compare Gann, or Safiya, or Kaelyn, or even grandpa bear Okku to NPCs in (almost) any other game and have them come up short. They're fully complex and 3 dimensional characters. They have their own likes, dislikes, their own tastes and desires. You don't grow closer to them by playing My First Psychologist to them or kowtowing to their every whiney demand, you do it by convincing them you're right and by making an actual and genuine bond with them.

The problem with most games is that they're stuck in "You need to save the world." It's a boring plotline - and hilariously conservative at that. The idea is that everything in the entire universe was fine and happy, and there was no strife anywhere at all, when suddenly the big bad evil guy came in and tried to alter the status quo! The hero is purely reactive.

Planescape: Torment and Mask of the Betrayer don't have that. They're both intensely personal storylines. In your standard Bioware game, you don't make any real decision. You don't change the story. The story isn't about you. You're just the pawn of fate, or the one chosen by destiny, or whatever other silly phrase you want to apply to it. You're still going to save the world at the end of the day, and it makes for a dull, shallow story. Rather, PS:T and MotB don't have you as a character in the story, but rather as the story itself. The plot literally revolves around your character. The choices you make matter a lot, often times with rewards or reprucussions far along the way.

I don't really think there's a comparison to be made. While mechanically Mask of the Betrayer wasn't the best game, it's writing carries it far above anything the Canadian doctors have ever done.

 

[AllisterH]

The rumor of a NWN Forgotten Realms MMO has been around for quite a while. It would not surprise me to learn that this was a MMO game. DDO has been a commercial and economic failure for WotC, Atari and -- for the most part -- Turbine. (There is no debate about this point. You might like the game, but I'm counting $$, not smiles and good feelings.)

.

This may have been true when DDO originally launched but now?....

DDO, since going to the microtransaction model has massively increased its revenues...Indeed, on MMORPG forums, DDO is endlessly discussed/examined as it is the first clear example of the "pay to play vs free to play" debate.

It's like leapfrogged from near the back of the back among domestic MMOs to the top 5 MMOs in terms of success/revenue.

 

[Sunseeker]

Ok, I take your point, although by leaving out PS:T and MotB, it sort of stacks the deck a bit. However, I do see the comparisons.

Not BioWare games is why.

However, now that I'm looking at this, I realize that it doesn't matter that much to me, since the games are so much fun, and part of the fun is seeing how Bioware plays with and modifies the cliche's from game to game. And, honestly, I can't think of many games that are more fun to play, cliches or not.

What BioWare has discovered, regardless of if we like it or not, is that cliche's are fun, popular and sell.

 

[Remus Lupin]

But my point is, I do like it! At least, I like what they do with it.

 

[MrMyth]

I cannot even begin to understand how NWN1 could be said to have had "emotional depth." It was probably one of the more terrible single player experiences I've had

Different experiences, I suppose. Maybe it was that Hordes of the Underdark, and the

Spoiler

reappearance of Aribeth

helped redeem the limitations of the first one. I don't know - but I felt much more tied to the story. ~shrug~

As for Mask of the Betrayer, I don't think it's really possible to compare Gann, or Safiya, or Kaelyn, or even grandpa bear Okku to NPCs in (almost) any other game and have them come up short. They're fully complex and 3 dimensional characters. They have their own likes, dislikes, their own tastes and desires. You don't grow closer to them by playing My First Psychologist to them or kowtowing to their every whiney demand, you do it by convincing them you're right and by making an actual and genuine bond with them.

I admit, Safiya was a reallly excellent character. Some of the others were solid, others... less so. But I've found the same in... well, in most RPGs, whether the NWN series, or Dragon Age, or Mass Effect. There are shallow characters in each, but also deeper ones, and I don't recall anything in MotB breaking out of this mold. And as mentioned - more importantly, I really liked many of the characters from NWN2, and getting cut off from them and having others forced into the party was not a winning strategy. But as I said before, NWN2 having literally the worst ending of an RPG I've ever played may be coloring my view of things a bit.

You mention that the plot is more interesting - more built around the character rather than 'save the world'. There is certainly truth to that. On the other hand, that only makes the limitations of the plot all the more frustrating. I spent the latter part of the game actually feeling excited over the chance to

Spoiler

assault the Wall of the Faithless, something about FR I've long despised... only to have the chance simply handwaved away from you, and have your character shrug and not bother with it.

That's the problem, really - you aren't playing 'your story', not actually. You're playing some other story that the designers really wanted to tell. And I know that's true of pretty much every CRPG we're talking about here, to one extent or another, and some of the Bioware ones certainly as well - but it felt especially bad in parts of NWN2 and MotB. Too many times where I could see them pulling me along to one tragedy after another I couldn't prevent, or forced down linear paths or given only one or two options - both ones I didn't want to make - and no other choice possible. MotB is certainly not as bad as NWN2 in that regard, and does have a very strong story to tell, but I'm just not quite sold on it being an epic in the same vein as Planescape: Torment.

I admit, it is pretty unique, and I can see why you would make the comparison. But concept and execution are different things, and I definitely felt - at least for me - there were flaws along the way holding it back.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The only MotB companion I found to be not incredibly deep was Many-As-One, and that's because he was the most perfect Igor evil minion ever

As for your spoiler, WotC (at least then) was notoriously heavy handed on how games could not be allowed to drastically effect the Realms. They wanted to give you a chance to do exactly what you wanted to do, but in the end didn't even ask after their experiences and frustrations with NWN2's OC.

There's a reason Bioware doesn't want to make any D&D games. Whenever you deal with someone else's setting, it's not uncommon that one stipulation be "The status quo must be maintained - video games are not allowed to alter the setting."

Actually I found the dichotomy surrounding that spoiler incredibly interesting. You'll see people who intensely agree with Kaelyn that it's very existance is an affront and an injustice on all of the Realms...and you'll see others who insist that it's not only neccisary, but a good thing, something that both should and must continue to exist.

To quote...myself...quoting someone else (this is getting weird):

Mask is a story about death, and the dead. It's a story about God, the gods, and the godless. It's a story about what happens to you after you die, and why bad things happen to good people (and the other way around).

I don't know of any other game which is so polarizing here...because I don't know of any other game that directly asks how you view faith. Not faith in any one specific religion, but the very idea of it.

I mentioned it before, but if you have played Mask of the Betrayer - or aren't going to, ever - or just want a really good read - then the Lets Play of it that Lt. Danger did.

 

[innerdude]

And what is it with computer games and "roleplaying"?!? I might as well be playing with a blue Smurf the size of peanut! . . . . I'm just a static sprite with no personality choosing bipolar speech lines, just trying to find the "right" answer that will give me the best item/reward.
...

And what is it with 4e and "roleplaying?!?" I might as well be playing a green army man figure from a Dollar Tree store on a battle mat . . . . I'm just a static bunch of stats, with no personality, choosing bipolar at will/encounter/daily powers, just trying to find the "right" answer that's supposed to give me the "optimum build" so I can beat the next encounter.

(TIC)



(Sorry, 4e lovers, the comparison was just too apt for me to resist. Game on! I really hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings.)

 

[MrMyth]

I mentioned it before, but if you have played Mask of the Betrayer - or aren't going to, ever - or just want a really good read - then the Lets Play of it that Lt. Danger did.

Ok, now this is funny, because I hadn't even noticed your link to it, but while trying to refresh myself on the story, stumbled upon that review. (And, admittedly, started to remember the game in a more favorable light because of it.)

As for the spoiler itself, from my first experience with it in the fiction, I've always found it an incredibly powerful mythic element of the setting, as well as something that made me pretty much loathe the way the gods ran the setting. Which is, of course, the sort of contradictions myths are built around, and certainly makes for a good central point of a game - but also made the character's ultimate lack of agency over that path (even to try and fail, notably) so disappointing.

 

[Lazybones]

I am still playing NWN1 multiplayer, in fact one of my campaigns has been going steady for almost seven years now. I would love to see a NWN3 that includes a potent DM Client and a new toolset, but I have to agree with Steel Wind that it is very unlikely that we'll see another game as friendly to multiplayer gamers and builders as the original NWN was. A pity because it is amazing what the custom content community has been able to accomplish with just the basic NWN engine (for example, I've played in campaigns based not only on fantasy settings, but Firefly, Star Wars, and X-COM).

 

[Kzach]

DDO is a fine game. I'd rather not see two DnD MMOs compete with each other.

We wouldn't. The travesty that is the current DDO would be scrapped for something, anything, much better