D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Minions?

[Tamlyn]

Admittedly, I have had very, very little exposure to 4E, but my impression of the system's use of minions is that they're easy to dispatch but they can actually deal some damage to the PC's before they're killed. I'd like ideas for some enemies like that in my 3.5 game.

The PC's are currently 4th level. I have a fighter and barbarian who have very good AC and a rogue, cleric, and druid with decent AC but use strong tactics and use terrain and cover to their advantage.

I've used higher-CR enemies to challenge them, but I don't want to do that all the time because the combate can bog down. I want encounters that can go fairly quickly, the PC's feel cool because they can kill the bad guys pretty easily, but the bad guys can also deal a decent amount of damage. I can throw a group of low-level warlocks at them and get the result I'm looking for, but I'd like more variety.

FWIW, the primary adversary (that the PC's currently know of) in this campaign are goblinoids. But I'm happy to re-skin or adapt anything I find interesting.

Thanks in advance for the ideas.

 

[Voadam]

Quick and easy, take a normal monster, make four or five of them with 1 hp instead, those four or five collectively count as one normal monster for purposes of CR/EL.

They are still a threat but will only get in hits until the party turns on them away from the big monsters and deals with them.

A little more complicated, take the normal monster and start simplifying them, give them fewer powers if they have a large range of spell like abilities, instead of having a range of damage give them a flat damage, etc. This is to ensure they are quick to use at the table.

Make sure you use minions who are not stronger at base than the monsters they support. Not 4 ogre minions with 1 normal ogre. In this instance the minions are just as much an offensive threat as the big bad guy of the fight so the smart move in that situation is always to ignore the big guy to take out the minions first, which you don't want. Make it 10 ogre minions with two hill giant chieftans when the party is of a level to handle hill giant level threats. Ignoring minions to focus on the bigger threats first should be a reasonable tactic with tradeoffs compared to focusing on minions first.

Minions are designed to be heroically plowed through, make sure their defenses (AC and saves and resistances etc.) do not make them super hard for the PCs to take out.

 

[Tamlyn]

Very good advice. Thanks!

I guess I was looking for any monsters or class combos that more naturally fit the role. Anything with low AC or HP that can still do some damage to the heroes before they're slaughtered?

The best I was able to come up with so far was a couple of rat swarms that had them all sweating. But I obviously don't want to throw swarms at them every week.

 

[Voadam]

Alternate idea is to take the rules for modifying encounter levels and go with that. Every doubling of a monster increases the EL by +2. So if you want an equivalent of the 4 4e minions then you would instead substitute the normal creature with four creatures of base monster's CR-4.

You need to watch out though, throw critters that are too low CR and the party will be fairly immune to them, particularly if they have high particularly high AC.

As for good goblin themed dangerous minions you could take a page out of Order of the Stick and go with a bajillion goblin ninjas, with either a ninja class or just rogue type levels so they do some noticeable damage but still have low AC and hp. The problem being their attack bonuses will lag with the medium BAB rate which your high AC party could mostly not worry about, unless you go with the Rokugan ninja class who get full BAB. Alternately go with the Unearthed Arcana fighter variant that gives up feats for sneak attack.

You could even have the inverse ninja law apply, when they face one, he is deadly, when they face a dozen they are mooks.

 

[Jhaelen]

I guess I was looking for any monsters or class combos that more naturally fit the role. Anything with low AC or HP that can still do some damage to the heroes before they're slaughtered?

Carnage demons (MM5, I think) might work: They get a bonus to attack & damage that depends on the number of carnage demons that are around.

You could use a similar mechanism for other monsters you design.

I've also successfully created a challenging encounter with a bunch of orc barbarians accompanied by an invisible bard and druid buffing them. Among other things, I also gave them the Eberron feat granting three action points to boost their attack rolls.

This was an experiment to see if I could create a non-trivial encounter that granted zero xp. It worked

 

[josha]

It's simple.
Create a class (or PrC) with d4 hit dice, full BAB, good damage, and low AC.
Give it a negative LA and call it "Minion".

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

The problem you're going to run into with using Minions in 3.5 is the system isn't designed for it. So when the PCs realize what you're up to, they'll start using low-cost spells to take out multiple minions quickly (e.g., magic missile can take out 5 minions in one shot... ridiculous). D&D 3.5 has more ways to attack many opponents each round than 4E does (remember, high level characters get 2, 3, or 4+ attacks per round easy). If you can find a way around that, then minions work just fine.

I've used 'em and basically ruled that they're dead as long as they eat up a "real" attack, not some 1 hp of damage from a cantrip cheese tactic. It worked well.

I also recommend mixing minion minis in with regular versions to avoid the PCs metagaming to take out enemies quickly.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

The problem you're going to run into with using Minions in 3.5 is the system isn't designed for it. So when the PCs realize what you're up to, they'll start using low-cost spells to take out multiple minions quickly (e.g., magic missile can take out 5 minions in one shot... ridiculous). D&D 3.5 has more ways to attack many opponents each round than 4E does (remember, high level characters get 2, 3, or 4+ attacks per round easy). If you can find a way around that, then minions work just fine.

I've used 'em and basically ruled that they're dead as long as they eat up a "real" attack, not some 1 hp of damage from a cantrip cheese tactic. It worked well.

Disclaimer: I've never actually tried using minions in 3.5e, so I might be missing something obvious here.

I see what you're saying here, but as long as the minions pose a real threat by being able to deal damage, is it so bad that they can be dropped with a single MM? They still force the PCs to consume actions, so they still pose a tactical challenge whether they're falling to rays of frost or to disintegrates. Heck, in this way they actually make those low-level spells useful again at high levels.

I definitely agree with your suggestion to mix minions in with normal monsters. They shouldn't wear Red Shirts or name tags that say "Minion". Part of the challenge of the encounter could be in figuring out which ones are minions and dealing with them without wasting the big guns that are reserved for the bbeg and his lieutenants.

 

[Sylrae]

The way I usually do "minions" in 3.5/pfrpg is these sorts of things:

Variations of:
1. Minimum hp, or even #ofHD+ConMod(once).
2. look at the handy guideline tables for AC in the PFRPG Bestiary or in Trailblazer's monster analysis, and think about lowering AC, just a little bit (like 1 CR Worth).

 

[Planetourist]

I've once invented something that may help. The result isn't a typical minion, but works in a similar way.

Make a monster that has only 1 hp... and a damage reduction that works against everything. It will speed combat because you won't have to note damage done to such creature - the hit was either fatal or not. I haven't played 3.x for quite a long time so I can't tell how big should be such a reduction - if it'll be high, such a 'minion' may be more dangerous than normal monster - but I hope you'll find some formula.