Is house ruling fair to the game or gamers when first introducing it?

[The Shaman]

I think the more important question is, is it fair to me that the publisher hasn't taken my house rules and produced a new edition of the game, making them official?

Well, Mr Bizar?

 

[Umbran]

I think, most non-gamers are of the opinion that chess is pretty much a very complicated and difficult game.

There is a difference between "the rules are complicated" and "the rules make for tactically rich and subtle and complicated play".

The rules of chess, or Go, are extraordinarily simple. But both games are tactically deep and complicated. The game is complex, even if the rules are not. How difficult the play is depends not on the rules, but on the opponent.

Umbran - I would point out that the rules for Catan cover about a page and a half. The rest is examples and very, very newbie friendly explanations. Heck, they even provide a basic game setup for you for the first time you play.

Well, I did already note that verbiage itself is not a full measure.

But let's take a look at Chess and Settlers:

Chess has: the board (two different kinds of spaces). Movement rules for six types of pieces. A couple special purpose cases of movement and taking pieces. A turn in which one player moves one piece. End of game determined when someone can no longer make a legal move.

Settlers of Catan has: The board (five different kinds of spaces, determined semi-randomly). Five different resources, three different things to build. A hand of cards. A turn in which the player rolls dice for production, trades (with several possible modifiers), and builds (with several different costs. Oh, and there's a semi-random robber moving around. End of game determined by accounting.

Seems to me that Catan has a truckload more fiddly-bits, and is therefore not what I'd call a simple game. If people wanted a simple resource management game, they'd go play Monopoly. Catan is for those who don't want it simple.

And, getting back to my original point - what do so many other resource-management games do to compete in Catan's space? Make their games even more complicated than Catan!

 

[Barastrondo]

I gotta admit, having had a fairly revolving door in my gaming groups (for some reason, the fifth player seat is certain death for any new player. 4 players? Had them for years. That poor 5th bastard, lasts a couple of weeks tops. Sigh) and I've seen all sorts of bizarre house rules come floating through the door from players who didn't actually know that they were house rules.

Wow, you play with Spinal Tap?

 

[Umbran]

Wow, you play with Spinal Tap?

His d10s go to 11.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

And, getting back to my original point - what do so many other resource-management games do to compete in Catan's space? Make their games even more complicated than Catan!

Heh, that's fair.

 

[billd91]

Seems to me that Catan has a truckload more fiddly-bits, and is therefore not what I'd call a simple game. If people wanted a simple resource management game, they'd go play Monopoly. Catan is for those who don't want it simple.
!

Not at all. In fact, I'd say that well-designed fiddly bits, even if there are a variety of them, simplifies a game. It's about good user-friendly design, not quantity. Catan may not be as simple as, say, Carcassonne, but as games go, it's quite simple.

 

[Umbran]

Catan may not be as simple as, say, Carcassonne, but as games go, it's quite simple.

I think you're missing the larger picture of games.

Look at some of the classics: Tic-Tac-Toe is simple (so simple as to be mathematically trivial). The rules of Go are simple (but gameplay is anything but trivial). Mancala is simple. Checkers is simple. Blackjack is simple. These are not normally part of Gamer Geek play, in my first guess because they are so simple.

Catan is simple compared to other games found in current gamer geek culture, but compared to the real simple games of the world, it just isn't.

 

[Barastrondo]

His d10s go to 11.

Well played, sir.

(must spread around experience et cetera)

 

[billd91]

I think you're missing the larger picture of games.

Look at some of the classics: Tic-Tac-Toe is simple (so simple as to be mathematically trivial). The rules of Go are simple (but gameplay is anything but trivial). Mancala is simple. Checkers is simple. Blackjack is simple. These are not normally part of Gamer Geek play, in my first guess because they are so simple.

Catan is simple compared to other games found in current gamer geek culture, but compared to the real simple games of the world, it just isn't.

Are you implying that gamer culture is more interested in playing sheepshead than blackjack because of its rule complexity?

You're missing plenty of other factors beyond complexity that would keep some of those games from being widely pursued in gamer culture. Subject matter and materials could certainly figure in. Gamers who focus a lot on board games like Catan or others probably just don't play a lot of traditional card games, like a lot of frequent traditional card players don't play a lot of board games. I suspect the same may apply to some of the traditional games that have their own followings as well. I know plenty of board gamers who don't play chess - they'd rather play Catan or Power Grid.

That said, there are plenty of board gamers who respect Go. Check out its rating on Boardgamegeek.com. Rates pretty high.

 

[Hussar]

I see what Umbran is saying. Bill91, compare the popularity of something like Catan to Trivial Pursuit. Now there's a hugely popular game. The rules are what, three sentences long? Roll die, move squares, answer question. Other than getting pie pieces on specific spaces and a few other bits, that's about it.

While I loves me Catan and the like, I do realize that these games are considerably more complex than the standard Milton Bradley offering.