Save or Die: Yea or Nay?

[Dausuul]

<double post>

 

[Dausuul]

Because that's what putting a medusa on a random encounter table basically works out to.

Now, I know you can manipulate the situation so that the player always has the ability to know that the SoD encounter is coming and can react accordingly, but, to me, that's too heavy handed. It's pretty obvious what's going on when every stranger I meet suddenly goes out of his way to mention that there is a specific kind of creature in that area. Never mind the fifteen other kinds of creatures there. They might or might not get mentioned. But every SoD creature will always be known.

Well, once again this comes down to how you regard save-or-die. If you think of it as an auto-kill, which you can only survive by great good fortune and the grace of the gods, then it becomes a lot more logical that creatures with such abilities would be whispered of and feared.

It's like dragons. A dragon is the sort of monster that makes its presence felt in the lands about. The peasants might not know about the owlbear den in the deep woods or the wights in the lost elven burial grounds, but they'll damn well know about the dragon under the mountain. Save-or-die monsters, if you're going to use them, should be like that.

Does this mean they don't belong on random monster tables? Damn straight it means they don't belong on random monster tables. If I were going to try to put SoD monsters back into the game, I would create a separate category for them and creatures like them--call it "legendary." The categorization serves as notice to the DM that This Monster Is Special and PCs should not come on it unexpectedly.

I'd also change the rules so that the chance of making the save is minimal--you should have to roll 17+, sometimes even a natural 20. A PC targeted by one of these effects should feel lucky when they survive, rather than unlucky when they don't. And DMs should be under no illusion that throwing these things around casually will result in anything but a TPK.

Don't make it "save or die." Make it "[size=+2]DIE[/size] [size=-2]unless you save[/size]."

 

[Ariosto]

Hrm, my character, in order to be targeted by a cdg attack, needs to be either:

a) rendered completely helpless magically
b) beaten unconcious through non-lethal damage
c) asleep

Seriously? So, there's no giving a coup de grace to someone who has, say, been skewered in the guts?

If that's so, then the eccentric 3e usage is not so relevant to the context in which it was raised in the first place: instant death from a blow to a character at 0 or negative points (from whatever cause) in AD&D.

 

[Reynard]

Now, is it good encounter design to have an invisible thief sneak into the character's room, without any warning, and cdg him in his sleep?

Depends.

Or -

Define "warning".

If three game months ago the PCs cheesed off the assassin's guild and blew town, then came back and forgot they had enemies about, then I think them waking up in pools of their own blood as "examples" to other hero types (i.e. the players' new characters) is totally valid.

 

[Ariosto]

Does this mean they don't belong on random monster tables? Damn straight it means they don't belong on random monster tables.

Huh??

I've got to do what, then? Use simulation algorithms to determine the position and vector of Slimy the Worm at every moment?

Not happening! I'll go for the probabilistic approach, concerned only with the question that really matters: whether Slimy is (or is probably soon to be) where the players can perceive it. If some "modern" gamer has a problem with that, then he can look elsewhere for his game.

For plenty of the rest of us, encounter tables have worked plenty fine for a mighty long time.

Also, dragons turned into demigods is a taste I do not share, at least in D&D. Dragons, death, wishes -- a lot of stuff gets blown way out of proportion, relative to the old game, in (I gather) 2e and onward. It's just a different kind of fun.

 

[BryonD]

Now, is it good encounter design to have an invisible thief sneak into the character's room, without any warning, and cdg him in his sleep?

Because that's what putting a medusa on a random encounter table basically works out to.

Purely hypothetically.....

If there was one guy out there somewhere that didn't let the rules use them and refused to be a blind slave to random encounter tables, would you concede that this example is completely moot to this one odd person?

 

[Dausuul]

Huh??

I've got to do what, then? Use simulation algorithms to determine the position and vector of Slimy the Worm at every moment?

Not happening! I'll go for the probabilistic approach, concerned only with the question that really matters: whether Slimy is where the players can perceive it. If some "modern" joker has a problem with that, then he can move along to the game run by a computer or the story told by a storyteller, or whatever.

For plenty of the rest of us, encounter tables have worked plenty fine for a mighty long time.

If you're using encounter tables to determine where a monster is in a dungeon, I've got no problem with that, so long as basic logic applies. (If a fire elemental wanders onto an island in the middle of an underground lake, I will have questions.)

If you're using encounter tables to determine what monsters are in a dungeon--like the general-purpose encounter tables in the 1E DMG--then I would have an objection to it. Aside from the fact that I think the DM should be stocking the dungeon based on what it would logically contain rather than the whim of the dice, having Medusa on a random encounter table of this type puts save-or-die back into the realm of "PC dies suddenly with no reasonable chance to prevent it, other than staying home on the family farm." You may be okay with that; I hate it and have no desire to see it return.

 

[BryonD]

I think the steps that lead to Coup De Grace (having already been hit by enough overwhelming force to be unconscious, or targeted by a specific spell or effect that renders you helpless) are a much higher treshold, and much more based on your own rolls and actions, than entering an encounter without having learned in advance that you will be facing Save or Die effects (which is much more reliant on the DM).

Obviously both our game preferences and actual at table experiences differ rather wildly. Perhaps we should each play different games.....

 

[Ariosto]

If you're using encounter tables to determine what monsters are in a dungeon--like the general-purpose encounter tables in the 1E DMG--then I do have an objection to it.

My biggest objection to doing only what you describe is that it might leave out too many monsters!

A bit of design is likely to produce more interesting results than a dungeon stocked entirely at random -- or entirely without the inspiration of things that surprise even the designer.

It strikes me as hardly relevant which way a basilisk ended up on the 4th level. The chance of meeting one there is part of the game, a game that I enjoy playing.

I might not so much enjoy a game in which one can encounter a bevy of beholders on the first level. That would definitely not be a product of the tables, which yield even one only on the 8th level or deeper.

It would be a product of someone who ignored those tables.

 

[LostSoul]

Now, is it good encounter design to have an invisible thief sneak into the character's room, without any warning, and cdg him in his sleep?

Because that's what putting a medusa on a random encounter table basically works out to.

Reaction rolls.

The encounter with the medusa is random; so is her reaction to the PCs (perhaps modified by Charisma?). My favourite table is from B/X (I use it for my 4E game); the chance of the medusa just deciding to stone everyone without any attempt to parley is slim. More likely she'll show up with a mask and engage in dialogue.