D&D 4E Essential 4e: Heroes of the Forgotten Lands

[Primal]

Just buy a $10 or whatever it is subscription to DDI and then you have absolutely everything that has been released easily. I think the greatest irony here is that essentials doesn't genuinely replace the old books and really is a bunch of new options if you're just playing 4E. Personally though, what I've seen doesn't look to bad as a starting point and a much lower investment. Honestly if you like essentials you'll like the rest of 4E from what I can tell.

Essentials does do a few things differently, but it doesn't try to do everything again and make all previous books irrelevant. I hate to say this, but from what I'm hearing in this thread and elsewhere, Essentials doesn't replace the core books OR function as a 4.5. It adds entirely to the game and much of the old material is still 100% valid, useful and if you actually want to use it, necessary. The ironic thing about all of this is that many are going to complain they need more than essentials to have all the options (like rituals it seems). This does give me quite a chuckle.

I do agree updated core books would be fantastic though.

I was under the assumption that 'Essentials' would be, more or less, a complete package -- i.e. updated 4E, only with less options. Now that it's evident it's just an expansion set with slightly simplified rules (no rituals, for example) it's got no value for me. As I said, I want the core classes and rules, only without having to print out (and write it all in the books) hundreds of pages. I don't care about DDI; I use online and digital tools only rarely, because I honestly prefer books to editors and PDFs. Even if I *did* subscribe, it wouldn't help me during game play, as none of us use laptops. Again, If WoTC wants me -- and other people like me -- as customers, they should reprint the core rule books.

As I posted above, 4E "veterans" probably see this in a different light, because for *them* it's all about adding new options. However, I don't see 'Essentials' as a good starting point; it offers "specialized" builds like the Slayer and Warpriest. What if I just want to play a "core" fighter or ranger as my first character, and I don't see a monthly 5-10 bucks for referencing the class and powers as a good investment. And, yes, if I'm going to shell out a hundred euros for a game, I want the whole shebang for my money; not some sort of partial and optional expansion that's marketed as the 4E Revised ("Here's all you gonna need for the whole 4E experience"). It's not the whole experience, at least for the people who want to try the core classes and rules.

There's also the price point to consider; as I gather, the first boxed sets and books only cover Heroic Tier, right? What about those Paragon feats? Rituals? Epic feats and destinies? At which point do these 'Essentials' cost more than the core books -- which *do* give me at least *some* sort of complete package? I don't need to try out 4E with 'Essentials'; I know I'd probably like it. And based on what I've seen, me and my group would totally prefer the "classic" classes over the 'Essentials' ones. I just want the core classes updated and reprinted. However, investing money in the "non-revised" core books is plain silly from my perspective.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

So from what you can see would you say that it essentially (hah!) functions in a similar way to Gamma World? In that it still uses the basic "core" 4e rules but essentially (hah again!) layers a new "experience" on top?

I think this is going to be the new way D&D (D20) works from this point on... Every so often we'll see a new experience layered on top, that still uses the core 4e rules, and can be used either independently or right along side the existing material.

I think that's what they mean when they say the ravenloft boxed set will be it's own game, and also a campaign setting. I think it will have its own classes and races, and stuff but will still use the base 4e rules, allowing us to mix and match really simply.

This will allow the users to really customize their own game to whatever they want.

And while we'll still argue unendingly about what the best ideas are, we no longer have to fight about what D&D should be... As it now seems they're willing to make a number of different (fully compatible) ideas about what it is at the same time.


Sorry to derail the thread there for a moment- just had to get that off my mind.

Yup, pretty much what generic systems have been trying to do for decades and sometimes succeeding. It will of course run into the same issue, which is a given system is best for certain styles/genre of play. It is a great advance though, never understood why TSR failed miserably to really do this 30 years ago. It will be interesting to see though whether 'generalized 4e' or 3.x based d20 really works best in this role. I guess they are sort of going in a bit of a different direction than d20 did. Eh, will be fun to see what comes of it.

I really honestly do really wonder if loosing rituals from Essentials was a good idea. There are going to be a lot of old school players very disappointed that their wizards do NOTHING but 'pew pew' now and have no other options at all. It is nice to say "go get DDI and CB" but that isn't a real handy table reference to using something. Given how scattered about they are in other books it is not a real solid option to go out and pick those up either (you'd need 3 PHBs, AP, and DP to get the bulk of what is published). That could be OK for some, not so much for others.

 

[Aegeri]

I was under the assumption that 'Essentials' would be, more or less, a complete package -- i.e. updated 4E, only with less options.

Um, that is exactly what you got as you can play 4E with essentials and only essentials easily. What you're effectively complaining about is "Why can't I get everything else for free?", which just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

And, yes, if I'm going to shell out a hundred euros for a game, I want the whole shebang for my money; not some sort of partial and optional expansion that's marketed as the 4E Revised

It has never, ever been marketed as 4E Revised by Wizards, even if it certainly has been called that by the paranoid essentials = 4.5!!! contingent. It was always an addition to the game that provided a basic start for anyone new to 4E. It never replaced or outdated the old books and to be quite frank now people have these things this is becoming *definitively* proven as your very complaint shows. If you want to play an original PHB fighter, buy the PHB. The fighter in that book is still valid now and will still be valid years down the track. Essentials in no way eliminates or outdates books. They never said it would and it appears in this case, Wizards weren't really trying to fool anyone because it doesn't.

 

[SabreCat]

There's also the price point to consider; as I gather, the first boxed sets and books only cover Heroic Tier, right?

Nothing to say to the rest of your personal-preference issues, but this is incorrect. Look upthread a bit for several mentions of Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies in this Heroes book.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

snip

you have misread a lot:

1. it is not 4e revised. This was tagged by amazon.com and some posters keeping naming it 4.5!

2. it covers paragon and epic, but not in a customizable way like it is in 4e core books.

3. essentials now proves to be what was announced: A simplified version, that is 100% compatible with full rules, shamelessly exploiting 4e's exception based desgin.

A personal taste: I would have liked it, if the wizard and the cleric subclasses had built in rituals so that newer players get a better grasp of them. But hey, whatever!

 

[Aegeri]

I really honestly do really wonder if loosing rituals from Essentials was a good idea.

It's hard enough getting PCs to part with their gold on a ritual that may or may not do anything at all as it is. I also wonder how the warpriest will handle things like removing curses and diseases. This is a death blow to rituals in 4E pretty much.

There are going to be a lot of old school players very disappointed that their wizards do NOTHING but 'pew pew' now and have no other options at all.

I don't mean to sound nasty but I couldn't care less what those people want, because the only thing that would satisfy them is if wizards (spellcasters) were can openers that solved all issues while the martial characters were frankly useless. Wizards in essentials have had a pretty solid upgrade in power, with their encounters gaining control effects on a hit or miss plus spellbook now allows a wizard to take multiple encounter powers and prepare them as well.

I mean, how much more powerful do we need to make wizards in 4E? They're unequivocally in a post-essentials world the best controller in the game now. The original PHB Wizard still gets rituals and combined with the new implement expertise feats, like Staff Implement Expertise, they are absolutely murderous at their role. Sure, they're not going to be encounter breaking all purpose can-openers but they are damn powerful for what they are. Especially compared to both of the rather lackluster fighter builds in essentials (IMO). Like compare the kind of utility and power of the knight/slayer to the essentials wizard. The essentials wizard just reads to me to be more effective, have far more options and has some awesome features. Hell the evocation wizard probably bends the Sorcerer over the table, slaps him on the bum and demands to know who his daddy is - doing both controller and striker easily. He gets effectively brutal 1 and ignores resistances as a class feature. Encounter powers with miss effects, some great new dailies like the "toad" power and such forth.

Losing rituals for things like that is a minor inconvenience of needing a feat at worst for what you get in return. For an essentials only game, the wizard is easily going to feel oldschool put side by side the knight/slayer. When he meets the proper 4E fighter from the original PHB he's quickly not going to feel so special though That's a good thing

 

[Scribble]

Yup, pretty much what generic systems have been trying to do for decades and sometimes succeeding.

I think the key point though is that the core system is relatively small... This makes the experience and play style driven more by the layers rather then the core. (If that makes sense.)

I really honestly do really wonder if loosing rituals from Essentials was a good idea. There are going to be a lot of old school players very disappointed that their wizards do NOTHING but 'pew pew' now and have no other options at all. It is nice to say "go get DDI and CB" but that isn't a real handy table reference to using something. Given how scattered about they are in other books it is not a real solid option to go out and pick those up either (you'd need 3 PHBs, AP, and DP to get the bulk of what is published). That could be OK for some, not so much for others.

Well I think the experience they were pushing for with this release is kind of a 4e version of "classic D&D" sort of feel. Rituals are awesome, but they're an entirely new concept to D&D.

Pulling them out of Essentials, and opening some of the powers to do more then just attack stuff (create water for the Cleric...) matches the classic D&D Vancian system with the 4e at-will and encounter update.

But tis is where the customizable thing comes in... If you really like rituals they work perfectly fine with the system. Just grab the feat and go.

Sure you need to buy some more books, but that's pretty much true for any rules expansion you want to use.

 

[Primal]

Nothing to say to the rest of your personal-preference issues, but this is incorrect. Look upthread a bit for several mentions of Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies in this Heroes book.

Alright, I stand corrected on this one, but why does this book only cover Heroic Tier feats? And IIRC, some of these books were (at least originally) billed as containing Heroic Tier stuff only? Don't get me wrong; I'm not arguing just for the sake of arguing. I would be happy to be wrong about this.

Now, if the 'Essentials' line contained the core classes (plus rituals, naturally) I'd buy the books. If anyone from WoTC is reading this thread: please update the core books or publish an 'Essentials' supplement cointaining the updated "classic" versions of each PH 1 and 2 classes. I think that would be a smart business decision.

 

[JoJa]

Couple things:

One, if I could give out more XP to Fiery_Dragon, I would. This is the info we've needed for the last six weeks. Thank you again.

Two, can we please save any bickering about what WotC should, should have, would or could have done with the Essentials products for the seemingly dozens of other threads on that topic on this board and others?

Let's let this thread simply be a place to ask questions about this one book, get them answered and then give props for getting them answered. I'm sure Fiery_Dragon does not want to wade through pages of back-and-forth opinions on the Essentials line to make sure he's answered all our questions.

Thank you.

 

[Aegeri]

Ohhh that's an excellent point Scribble.

To Fiery Dragon: Does the Warpriests Resurrection effectively work like the raise dead ritual would (It's the 8th level class feature IIRC). Getting a class feature that replaces one of the core rituals for Clerics makes a great deal of sense is essentials doesn't include rituals by default.

Alright, I stand corrected on this one, but why does this book only cover Heroic Tier feats?

Because the feats scale in level. You can take any of them in heroic, but they scale in effect so in reality instead of having 3 feats - one at each tier - they have one feat that works through all three tiers. This also leads to another good question for the wonderful Dragon <3 How many feats are there in the book?

And IIRC, some of these books were (at least originally) billed as containing Heroic Tier stuff only?

Only the redbox. The DMs kit, both Heroes books and the Monster Vault covers all tiers. I'll be awfully annoyed if there aren't epic chromatic dragons in the Monster Vault for example. So much so, I will have to fly to the US and take out my unholy rage with fish. FISH.