Magic Item Wishlist: Yea or Nay?

[JoeGKushner]

And?

If an item is worthy enough to quest after then certainly it will be worth the wait. A desire no stronger than the gaining of a few levels is hardly worth rewarding and an item that loses it's appeal after such a quest is hardly worth being called a magical item.

Copmlete disagreement.

A +2 sword to a 7th level character is not worth the wait to a 13th character whose probably selling them by the dozen from random encounters if using ye old random treasure rolls.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Copmlete disagreement.

A +2 sword to a 7th level character is not worth the wait to a 13th character whose probably selling them by the dozen from random encounters if using ye old random treasure rolls.

I'd say a +2 sword probably doesn't qualify as "worth the wait," then. A Holy Avenger for an AD&D Paladin? Well, that's worth the wait!

 

[JoeGKushner]

I'd say a +2 sword probably doesn't qualify as "worth the wait," then. A Holy Avenger for an AD&D Paladin? Well, that's worth the wait!

And that's a perfect example of an item that players could find in many situations well before they should have them according to any type of power scale in older editions.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

And that's a perfect example of an item that players could find in many situations well before they should have them according to any type of power scale in older editions.

I don't really see what that has to do with wish lists. What do you mean?

 

[JoeGKushner]

I don't really see what that has to do with wish lists. What do you mean?

In older editions, in my experience, the abilities of magic items tended to not necessarily level with the players. It might not be that unusual to have a powerful item such as a Holy Avenger well before it was 'level appropriate'.

In terms of wish lists, in earlier editions I can see it being a question for almost every level. In 3e/4e, it would probably be the cumulation of Paragon levels.

This is part of where I think some disconnect comes from with GMs of older editions. The questing part is probably easier to handle because levels last a lot longer and the connection between magic item power level and character power level isnt' as ingrained.

 

[JoeGKushner]

As DM, part of the fun for me is to surprise the players. It wouldn't be that fun for me giving the players everything they want or expect. And if I give them something I thought they'd like but they didn't, then they can sell it. Then I'd just try again.

This is why I mentioned in my own post I don't think I'm smarter than my players. For example, I don't tell them to play the ranger because I think they'd like it when they really want to play the fighter.

One thing that made D&D so cool when I first started playing was getting magic items that I knew nothing about. So I try to keep that part of the game alive by asking my players not to look in the Magic Item Compendium because I want to surprise them with all the cool items from it. It is so much more enjoyable when I give them something that they are not familiar with, and I think they like that also.

I can agree with this. My own gaming experiences are like that. It was part of the fun of home brewing magic items, spells, and monsters. To provide the surprise over the cynical and experience.

But, and I'm probably going to sound a little like an ass here, it's not 1979 anymore. The internet has vastly changed the way people gather information and knowledge. Unless you're playing with people who don't surf the net, are playing an out of print edition, or just playing with what I'd call casual players who aren't that into it, the chances of surprising the players with the cool, is probably not very high.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Here's the kind of thing I do in my 1e AD&D/OSRIC City State of the Invincible Overlord game:

A Fighter PC is specialised in Bardiche. He's unlikely to ever randomly find a magic Bardiche. But he *did* find a +3 rune-scribed Spear (Wraith Overlord - Despot Ruins level 1), which he took to the Temple of Odin. They were happy to get their lost artifact back and the High Priest laid a battle rune on his Bardiche, enchanting it to +1.

Here's one for you.

My long running fighter in 2nd edition was double specialized with long sword and was a two-weapon fighter.

I had two +4 long swords that were blood red and were supposed to be 'special.' After a few pushes from the GM, the party and I went on some crazy quest to discover the purpose of these items.

They merged into a single +5 two handed sword that did all this awesome stuff. But I wasn't as good with the new weapon in terms of overall hitting bonus, #of attacks, etc... so I sold it for two... yup, +4 swords. The GM was baffled I tell you. He couldn't understand why I did that. It was one of several instances where I experienced the GM thinking he was being clever and catering to the players with things they'd never want but he thought were cool. And I've been quilty of that myself a time or two which is why I try to listen to players when they talk about what they want out of the game.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Whoa... But your players buy the game out of a Sears catalog... That's like blowin my miiiind maaaan... It's a circle. Circle of Gaming!

And the xp post you're replying to, "The Shaman: "My D&D characters look for magic items in ancient crypts and bustling bazaars, not Sears catalogs." Hells... " is another one that baffles me.

As noted, no one at least in this thread, is advocating that the players walk into a store and pick up said item. Although the economics of 3e and 4e do encourage that to a point. The way I've seen it mentioned here several times is to put the desired item... yes, into the ancient crypts and bustling bazaars. But I guess it's easier to present that we're saying one thing so some can rally against it?

 

[FireLance]

I think the disconnect that some posters are feeling is the following:

The DM putting magic items into a treasure hoard that he thinks his players will want is okay.

BUT

The DM asking his players what they want and then putting those magic items into a treasure hoard is somehow not okay.

Setting aside player entitlement issues (which IMO would only crop up if you are dealing with players who are immature or who have problems with basic social interaction in the first place), this seems to imply that when a player expresses a preference for a particular magic item, the DM should go out of his way to make it difficult for the character to get it. This seems to me like a rather unhealthy player-DM dynamic.

Perhaps it's time to add one more item to my collection of wish list fallacies:

4. Magic item wish lists mean that the characters do not need to expend any effort to get the magic items they want. While it is true that a wish list may mean that characters do not need to expend any extra effort to gain the magic items they want, the characters still have to do whatever the DM thinks is necessary to win those items, whether it is defeating an enemy, impressing a patron, or overcoming a challenge of some kind. The only difference is that the rewards they earn are those that are chosen by their players instead of being randomly generated from a table or the result of guesswork by the DM.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

And the xp post you're replying to, "The Shaman: "My D&D characters look for magic items in ancient crypts and bustling bazaars, not Sears catalogs." Hells... " is another one that baffles me.

Luckily, the author of that post is a member of EN World, so he's available to respond and answer questions.

When a player generates a wishlist, he goes through his books and picks the items he likes, writes them down, and gives them to his DM, yes? Looking through a book of items you want has a real-world analog in catalog sales, and to me, the wishlist process feels more like ordering from a catalog than adventuring. Sure, in-game, the character finds the items in exciting locations by chance, guile, and heroism, but everyone at the table knows it was a result of ordering them through the DM, after choosing them from, effectively, a catalog.

I don't really object to wishlists from a DM perspective. If a player wants something that badly, he'll get it. I might raise an eyebrow, because that situation would be out of keeping with the tone of games I tend to run. Magic items just aren't that large a proportion of character effectiveness in my games, and are mostly fun toys to extend the variety of abilities available, rather than a key component of a character. Nonetheless, I'd make the item available in-game, because I'll do whatever it takes to make sure my players are having fun.*

I object more from a player perspective, and that's why I put in the anecdote about randomizing a wishlist. The wishlist system for me is a bit like being 8, and having your parents ask what you want for Christmas. On the one hand, getting a new 10 speed bike on Christmas day feels really great, and you don't have to worry that your parents will get you a cruddy five-speed Huffy. But you don't get to spend all of December coiled up with anticipation over what Santa's going to bring you. I want that anticipation, as a player, even at the cost of not getting an item that would fit my character well.

*I have, on request, worn silly hats.