Starting without equipment

[Lord Ernie]

Actually it's pedantic.

Also, I can't find this rule anywhere?

That's because it's not a rule. The compendium states that an unarmed attack counts as an improvised weapon, which means an attack that has no proficiency bonus, does 1d4 base damage, and is part of the 'unarmed' group. It makes no mention of light blades at all.

Likewise, monks who want to take expertise or focus with their unarmed attacks muse choose unarmed expertise, not light blade expertise.

 

[Jhaelen]

And Monks just laugh. Cloth armour is no different from naked, a +0 Ki Focus isn't possible to find (and doesn't give anything either), and that's about all they need for full combat effectiveness. (For that matter, Wizards are no different).

Well, monks are implement users

Regarding improvised weapons: While you're missing out on the proficiency bonus you aren't a lot worse off than implement users if you have a couple of attack powers targeting Reflex (like e.g. rogues who even get those as at-wills). And the difference in damage might hurt but doesn't completely neuter a fighter either (unless you've been a playing a greatweapon fighter, i.e. a quasi-striker), since their most important feature (marking) still works.

I completely forgot about armor though, that's definitely an area where heavy armor users will take a beating while cloth users will hardly notice the difference (at least until they're in the epic tier).

 

[Mengu]

It's doable, and is fine, as long as the DM is aware of how this will affect characters. In previous editions and in this edition, I've seen situations where PC either start out without equipment, or are captured and lose all their equipment. It's usually only temporary, there is usually a way to recover the equipment, and the encounters while you are running around without equipment will usually involve a degree of subterfuge, con work, or other chicanery. There may be a few fights, but you usually try to get surprise, wrestle an enemies weapon, etc. Armor can be an issue for a while, but even with armor, I've been in encounters where every single attack against me hit me. So running around without armor is not much different than running around with some bad luck for a while.

IMO, story always comes first. If the PC's are going to be without equipment for a short time, they can deal with it. If it will be an extended time, with many combat encounters, it may be wise to make some regional rule to cover the game mechanics portion. For instance if heavy armor is disallowed in a region, it may be wise to simply say those who normally wear heavy armor suffer -2 AC (rather than stripping the armor altogether) and their armor doesn't hinder their speed while in this region.

So, even "no equipment" does not necessarily have to mean no bonuses. A DM with a good grasp of the system can impose penalties to simulate various handicaps. 4e is quite flexible this way.

 

[Larrin]

I'm glad to hear its worked out well for people. I had a VERY bad 3.0 experience where the DM felt a party with no equipment should be constantly harrassed by wyverns, rust monsters (to eat the only weapon, a dagger my rogue had), 20 shocker lizards, etc and then became annoyed when we ran away. We also didn't have any skill points. And it wasn't because we had escaped from jail, we were adventurers that started with no equipement, 1 skill point in every class skill (it was a new method the DM thought would be more realistic), and level 8 facing CL 8-13 encounters. Weeeeeee.

Needless to say, even in 4e were I can see how it could work to some degree, I've been turned off the concept pretty hard core.

 

[Delgar]

Whether one class is at an advantage or disadvantage is largely irrelevant. Even if the characters start out with nothing, it won't last very long as they'll start arming themselves as they try to escape their prison. It's just another challenge that the players will have to face and in the end might make for a great fun bonding experience for the players and offer them something they may not have experienced before.

I say go for it and have fun.

 

[drothgery]

Whether one class is at an advantage or disadvantage is largely irrelevant. Even if the characters start out with nothing, it won't last very long as they'll start arming themselves as they try to escape their prison.

Arming your character isn't really a big deal and doesn't give any class a particularly large advantage; almost all characters can get by for at least a little while with an inexpensive / improvised weapon or implement. Armoring yourself is another matter; some classes just don't work well without heavy armor, and that's hard to improvise or steal in prison break.

 

[mneme]

Also note that a wizard who don't have their spell book still have trouble as all of their Utility and Daily powers are written on it.

This isn't that big a deal--people who prepare spells can keep their existing spell (or re-prepare whatever spell they used last) if they don't have their spellbook when they prep spells. (this is in the Rules Compendium).

 

[Saeviomagy]

Regarding improvised weapons: While you're missing out on the proficiency bonus you aren't a lot worse off than implement users if you have a couple of attack powers targeting Reflex (like e.g. rogues who even get those as at-wills).

It's not a case of damage or accuracy. It's a case of the powers flat-out not working without the right weapon. Every single rogue power has the rider "you must be wielding a light blade/crossbow/sling".

So... while everyone else can use at least SOME of their class while butt-naked, the rogue is left with making off-stat basic attacks.

Now sure, it's pretty easy for a DM to rule that pretty much any sharp rock counts as a light blade, or to change all those rogue powers and sneak attack to include "improvised and unarmed weapons", or to let him use that scrap of cloth as a sling. But if you're running a "you're nekkid" scenario and you DON'T specifically tell the rogue player these things, he's going to assume he can't do squat in a fight, and the rules back him up on that.

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

Are you sure you are talking about 4e? All classes are affected in exactly the same way if they don't have their weapons or implements.

I said some classes are heavily effected by missing their equipment, others much less so.

Your response is partially true at high levels, where the wizard misses his +3 wand, and the fighter misses her +3 Bastard Sword.

But at 1st level, a naked wizard misses nothing, because he doesn't use armor (barring a feat) and doesn't need an implement to make his attacks. He's just as powerful, combat-wise with our without his equipment.

A 1st level fighter who went Str or Con secondary is missing his military weapon (or superior, with a feat) and 9 points of AC from his scale mail and large shield (or just 7 AC if he only uses scale). He might get one or two points of AC from Dex, but he's clearly much, much weaker.

Even at high levels, where both the wizard and fighter are missing out on enhancement bonuses for being "naked," weapon users and armor wearers (especially heavy armor wearers) lose more of their combat power from missing their armor. Heavy armor wearers usually don't have Dex or Int to cover their AC when forced into light/no armor. And implement attack still use the same damage dice with or without an implement, whereas weapon users will usually have worse damage dice and proficiency bonuses to attack with improvised weapons.

 

[Mad Hamish]

It can be done but needs the GM to take account of the problems for characters which include
- heavy armour wearing classes will have an AC 7-10 points below what they'd expect so they'll almost always be being hit.
Light armour wearing classes might be 2 or 3 AC points down -> assuming not a shield user
- for most characters unarmed attacks have no proficiency mod so they will hit less often
- unarmed attacks do very little damage.
- characters with powers that require particular weapon types are really stuffed over (rogue being the main one, swordmages as well I guess, also ranged weapon users like Archer Rangers or Seekers)
- martial characters are nerfed badly, casters not affected all that much.
- the effect on most defenders is huge, the exception would be Paladin and _maybe_ Shielding swordmage.

So it's a change that has a big effect on some classes and almost none on others, you'd need people to be able to get some equipment very quickly to even things out.