Is Heavy Metal "Rebellious"?

[jonesy]

I once had a discussion with a guy from a metal magazine about Mansion and he described him as goth sensationalist industrial rock.

Whatever that is supposed to be.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

It's in the bins next to Gummi Bear Swing, but has more of a Rasta Death Linguini influence to it.

Edit: sorry, that's Death Linguini Rasta- completely different genre.

 

[jonesy]

Rasta is more punk than death.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XZjvXLQSP0]YouTube - Bob Marley Exodus Hardcore/Punk/Metal Stoney Eye Studios Remix[/ame]

 

[Umbran]

But I don't agree with the statement that "Because It's old, it's not rebellious any more." One does not necessarily follow the other. Rebellious doesn't mean "new." Something can be old and rebellious.

I can't think of the terms. I summon the Logic Mod, [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION], to assist me in elucidating* what I'm trying to say.

Sorry it took so long, but I was floating around on a boat in the Caribbean...

You're right that one does not necessarily follow the other. But on the other hand, there's some correlation. Rebellion is a refusal to obey, or follow orders. In the world of music, that's typically taken to be a refusal so follow current social or musical norms.

As things age, they tend to get absorbed into the standard cultural norms. If that happens to your Old Thing, then I'm sorry, but your old thing is no longer rebellious. Or, as the thing ages, the authority or norm that it was rebelling against changes, and there's nothing to rebel against.

But, on occasion, you can have an old thing that doesn't fit the current norms, and then it can be rebellious. Adoption of that which is "retro" can be a rebellion, for example.

I personally don't think that's the position Heavy Metal is in, though. Musically, its conventions have been widely adopted by other genres. And what it stood for socially (if anything) has become more the norm as well - it is no longer "bucking the system" as it were.

 

[El Mahdi]

Sorry it took so long, but I was floating around on a boat in the Caribbean...

Was that for real, or just the beginning of a Pirate RPG campaign...?

 

[Umbran]

Was that for real, or just the beginning of a Pirate RPG campaign...?

For real. On vacation. No pirates to be seen (thank goodness).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Musically, its conventions have been widely adopted by other genres.

As a musician, i can't agree with this.

The levels of guitar distortion that are present in other genres- with the exceptions of hard rock, punk and heavier industrial subgenres- would be entry level at best for acceptability in metal. Guitarists in other genres don't even touch the pedals and amps that are the foundation for achieving that in metal.

The emphasis on minor chords, dissonance, and (in many metal genres) mastery & mixing of a host of scale types are absent in mainstream music.

The nature of metal vocals- be they the extreme high wails or the "cookie monster" growls so en vogue today- are also virtually unique to the genre.

Neither the dirgelike pace nor the blazing speed of drone, stoner, thrash, speed, etc. are popular anywhere else but in metal.

At best, other genres have dipped their toes in the waters that metal swims in.

And what it stood for socially (if anything) has become more the norm as well - it is no longer "bucking the system" as it were.

Metal doesn't stand for one thing, its a conglomeration of many things.

Going from the late 1960s on to today, we find metal lyrics explicitly endorsing Satan, supernatural horror, excessive alcohol or drug consumption, brutal thuggery, violence against women, murder (esp. of authority figures), riots, anarchy (yes, just like the punks), anti-establishment social activism, aggressive ecoterrorism, sex outside of marriage, paganism and/or overt anti-Christianity and so on and so forth. Metal's stand, as it were, is as amorphous as James Dean's:

Q: "What are you rebelling against?"
JD: "Whatta ya got?"

As Perry Farell pointed out during the first Lollapalooza tour, if anything, metal and rap are the closest, lyrically speaking. You won't find any genre besides rap or punk that encompasses so many anti-mainstream messages as metal.

That stuff just don't play in Peoria. You won't hear any of that in the Grand Ole Opry.

 

[Aeolius]

...the "cookie monster" growls so en vogue today- are also virtually unique to the genre.

When you say "cookie monster growls", I think of the King of the Groaners - Mahlathini:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8PZImiMpgo]YouTube - South Africa - Mahlathini & Mahotella Queens - Thokozile[/ame]

 

[Umbran]

As a musician, i can't agree with this.

Thus are genre discussions born.

The levels of guitar distortion that are present in other genres- with the exceptions of hard rock, punk and heavier industrial subgenres-

"Nobody has adopted this, except for all those that have adopted it." Those exceptiosn are kind of the point. Hard Rock and punk are hardly tiny corners of music nobody listens to.

We could nitpick points, but I think it comes down to this:

At best, other genres have dipped their toes in the waters that metal swims in.

Yes, but that's okay. The others have dipped their toes in, enough so that nobody is really surprised by those features any more. If it isn't surprising, if others accept it as okay, rather than on offense, it really isn't rebellion. When everyone else stop saying, "What the hell is that?!?" and start saying, "Yeah, dude, that's cool," it stops being rebellion, and starts begin part of the establishment.

Metal doesn't stand for one thing, its a conglomeration of many things.

Same goes for every genre.

Going from the late 1960s on to today, we find metal lyrics explicitly endorsing Satan, supernatural horror, excessive alcohol or drug consumption, brutal thuggery, violence against women, murder (esp. of authority figures), riots, anarchy (yes, just like the punks), anti-establishment social activism, aggressive ecoterrorism, sex outside of marriage, paganism and/or overt anti-Christianity and so on and so forth.

...

As Perry Farell pointed out during the first Lollapalooza tour, if anything, metal and rap are the closest, lyrically speaking. You won't find any genre besides rap or punk that encompasses so many anti-mainstream messages as metal.

I am not sure it is sufficient to have an anti-mainstream message, though. Now we need to consider the culture around the music. Rap music talks the same talk, and it has people who walk the walk. Metal, these days? Not in the US.

You won't hear any of that in the Grand Ole Opry.

So? You won't hear Edvard Grieg in the Grand Ole Opry either, but that doesn't make Classical "rebellious". Not being played in a different genre-specific venue is not an indicator of rebelliousness.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

"Nobody has adopted this, except for all those that have adopted it." Those exceptiosn are kind of the point. Hard Rock and punk are hardly tiny corners of music nobody listens to.

I beg to differ: the exceptions are telling. Hard rock that is within the mainstream (IOW, getting actual play on radio & TV) tends to be almost purely heavy blues. The few rock guitarists who actually venture into metal territory do so almost exclusively in their solos, not within the body of the rest of the song.

Punk is still a fairly niche genre, with true (new) punk bands struggling to sell Gold. Sure, pop-Punk like Green Day has done well- often charting on Billboard and hitting Platinum, but I don't know a single true punk who considers Green Day and their ilk to be representative of Punk as a whole. As for the older punk bands hitting Gold or Platinum? Well, honestly, it took decades for them to do so. That's hardly mainstream- that's old punks replacing worn out tapes & LPs; that's old punks raising their kids on the real thing.

The others have dipped their toes in, enough so that nobody is really surprised by those features any more.

So they're not surprised by the diluted stuff- they'd still choke on the real thing.

To make a comparison, this is like saying Everclear is a soft drink because you can dilute it to the point that it doesn't cause your eyes to pop out and your throat to feel like you just swallowed an acetylene torch. Everclear w/soda water being a mild thrill doesn't mean that the pure stuff isn't damn near poison.

Now we need to consider the culture around the music. Rap music talks the same talk, and it has people who walk the walk. Metal, these days? Not in the US.

As in, we know that there are people in rap who have done drugs and committed crimes in the past much as they sing about today?

We have that in metal, even in the purely US bands.

As in there are people in rap experiencing repercussions for doing what they're singing about? IOW, gun crimes, drug crimes, sex crimes and other anti-societal acts?

Again, we have that in metal as well. Lots of drug ODs in the past decade, even among the youngsters. A few homicides, too.

Hell, I've been on tour busses and been offered the proverbial mound 'o' white powder & a girl for the hour. (Yes, I did decline.)

The difference is mainly that its the high-profile rappers and the low profile metal bands that are skirmishing with the law. Which means the rappers make national news, while the dramas of the metalheads are usually only found in your local police blotters or in media outlets devoted to rock & metal.

So? You won't hear Edvard Grieg in the Grand Ole Opry either, but that doesn't make Classical "rebellious". Not being played in a different genre-specific venue is not an indicator of rebelliousness.

My point was about popularity & acceptance within society, not locale- the GOO being an example of a shrine to mainstream music. Country as a genre still sells big. A top-notch solo C&W artist can sell huge numbers of tickets across the USA; ditto for a great tour package with a solid cross-section of C&W artists (including ones you've never heard of).

Big metal shows are largely found in countries like Great Britain and Brazil- in the US, there hasn't been but one majorly successful multi-act metal tour for a decade or so- Ozzy's Ozzfest- and it tends to draw the big, mainstream metal names only...big enough to have name recognition outside of their genre.

I'm in D/FW, Texas. We love rock & metal...but not like we used to.

We used to have the Texas Jam every year; its dead. Judas Priest's tour last year- which, among other things, presented the entirety of British Steel played live- played our Nokia Center, not a stadium. Ditto for a multi-band metal tour that passed through here last year.

We had a couple of dozen nightclubs catering to the metal scene, and we had a local publication- Harder Beat- which actually had international circulation. HB is a year gone, and almost all of the metal clubs have been replaced by strip joints and Mexican dance halls.