How to stop player whining? Drama!

[DumbPaladin]

Couple things:

Yes, I would say he definitely has the trying to "win" mindset of us vs. the DM. And I would say he definitely doesn't trust the DM. I'm not really sure how we can make him trust the DM though. Some of the bad things that have happened to him have been semi cheap, but not really horrible. The potions lost in the fire was the worst thing, and that was far from horrendous. Plenty of similar things have happened to other players, and while we're not exactly happy about it (you're not gonna say "YAY! I took 30 damage!"), we realize that things happen, it's part of the game.

I'm very curious to see how this turns out. I'm predicting the problem solved for the most part, but I think there's still gonna be a LITTLE whining. Hopefully we can make him "get it".

I'm actually curious ... how does he react when OTHER players get "screwed over" (I'm using his mentality, I'm not actually assuming your DM is out to screw your players)? Does he get mad on their behalf, or is it pretty much only whenever ANYTHING unpleasant happens to his character?

Does he get that bad things happen? Does he understand his character may die someday? How does he plan to react if that happens, even if his character is resurrected?

 

[Doctor DM]

@ DumbPaladin: Well most of the bad things that happen to him happen to at least one other person as well, like being shot for a ton of damage by the gatling gun, or the items lost in the fire. IF something doesnt work out for someone else and he's not involved, he's kinda bummed about it like anyone would be (like I said, no one is HAPPY to take a bunch of damage or lose an item), but no more then anyone else really. Maybe SLIGHTLY more.

And yes he gets upset about pretty much anything negative that happens to him. Example:

We're 3rd level. HP is in the low 30's. We're fighting a guy who is obviously a super badass, has defintily had some sort of enchantment or something on him or had drunk a potion of someting good. He's comes up and whacks said player with an obviously magic sword (a cavalry sabre) for 15 damage. Player freaks out, saying it's BS that someone did that much damage with a sword, citing the fact that HE can't do that with HIS cavalry sabre. He has a mundane sword and a 14 strength. The guy who hit him was probably stronger in the first place, probably had Bulls Strength or something, and his sword was magic. Maybe he had some feats too. Power Attack? Weapon Spec? Hell, it could've been a critical hit. But the player had a very hard time accepting that damage.

What does that tell you? You guys have done an excellent job of analyzing this so far. Have you considered careers in psychology?

 

[Doctor DM]

LostSoul brings up a good point.

The GM chooses to interpret situations a certain way and either chooses an optimal assumption for the PC or a negative one.

If the GM says the inn is on fire, and the PCs say they get and get out, does he assume they grabbed anything? The player didn't specifically say it, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have tried to grab something?

in almost every fire (or fire drill/alarm) people are ALWAYS grabbing stuff on their way out. An adventurer in an inn would most likely grab his backpack (where most his stuff is) and his belt (which has his weapons on it). He'd be more likely to lose his armor, which is probably multiple pieces, and thus unwieldy to carry.

Or the DM could stick to a "if you didn't say it, you didn't do it" mentality. The problem is when this rule is unspoken, and enforced unconsistently.

Actually wasn't the case with the potion/fire incident. We ran out of there in our long johns in a hurry to catch the thugs, and the DM actually asked us if we were stopping for other gear or armor, and we said no, just grabbing our guns and rushing after these guys.

Although, ONE character took the time to put on his armor, and the DM gave him the positive assumption that if he's taking a few rounds to get his armor on he's getting his backpack of stuff too.

 

[Holy Bovine]

And yes he gets upset about pretty much anything negative that happens to him. Example:

We're 3rd level. HP is in the low 30's. We're fighting a guy who is obviously a super badass, has defintily had some sort of enchantment or something on him or had drunk a potion of someting good. He's comes up and whacks said player with an obviously magic sword (a cavalry sabre) for 15 damage. Player freaks out, saying it's BS that someone did that much damage with a sword, citing the fact that HE can't do that with HIS cavalry sabre. He has a mundane sword and a 14 strength. The guy who hit him was probably stronger in the first place, probably had Bulls Strength or something, and his sword was magic. Maybe he had some feats too. Power Attack? Weapon Spec? Hell, it could've been a critical hit. But the player had a very hard time accepting that damage.

What does that tell you? You guys have done an excellent job of analyzing this so far. Have you considered careers in psychology?

Uh, yeah. How exactly is he a 'great player' and 'good friend' again? If the DM has to justify every niggling thing to this guy is he really worth keeping around? How do you stand it?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What does that tell you? You guys have done an excellent job of analyzing this so far. Have you considered careers in psychology

Give 'em a taste of transparency: run a combat with that kind of opponent and show them exactly where the damage is coming from. That should quiet complaints about fairness and "BS".

If you don't want to do that as it's going on, give them a behind the scenes recap. Again, seeing that you're not hosing them should stop their gobs.

 

[Doctor DM]

Uh, yeah. How exactly is he a 'great player' and 'good friend' again? If the DM has to justify every niggling thing to this guy is he really worth keeping around? How do you stand it?

LOL I knew someone was going to say this. Maybe we keep him around because he IS such a good friend?

I know he sounds like a HUGE douche, but he's not as bad as he seems. It's really weird honestly. Very hard to describe.

And although he sucks a lot as I've shown, he is a good player in some aspects. Very inventive, good in-character role playing, humorous, and fun when he's not complaining. I guess you could say he's a blast as long as everything is going his way.

We need him to accept that won't always happen, it's part of the game to have bad things happen. Otherwise what's the point of playing?

So yeah, it's REALLY hard to describe, but we DO want to play with this guy. You'd have to be there. Weird I know.

 

[Mesh Hong]

And yes he gets upset about pretty much anything negative that happens to him. Example:

We're 3rd level. HP is in the low 30's. We're fighting a guy who is obviously a super badass, has defintily had some sort of enchantment or something on him or had drunk a potion of someting good. He's comes up and whacks said player with an obviously magic sword (a cavalry sabre) for 15 damage. Player freaks out, saying it's BS that someone did that much damage with a sword, citing the fact that HE can't do that with HIS cavalry sabre. He has a mundane sword and a 14 strength. The guy who hit him was probably stronger in the first place, probably had Bulls Strength or something, and his sword was magic. Maybe he had some feats too. Power Attack? Weapon Spec? Hell, it could've been a critical hit. But the player had a very hard time accepting that damage.

OK, so this is where I change my mind.

With previous information and description I could put the persons reactions down to unfamiliarity and understand his reported responses and attitude. But questioning the amount of damage he takes from an opponent or saying it is unfair because he can't do it with his current character is very bad form.

Again though you can boil it down to trust, he obviously doesn't trust that the DM is playing fairly. It is also starting to look to me like this player cannot tolerate a situation where someone or something is better than him, it is starting to look like he isn't a team player and thinks that the world is solely there for his amusement and not to challenge him in any way.

Does he really understand that an RPG is a story, and all good stories involved a fair amount of trial and tragedy before triumph?

 

[wedgeski]

So yeah, it's REALLY hard to describe, but we DO want to play with this guy. You'd have to be there. Weird I know.

A good friendship completely transcends what happens at the gaming table. I totally get you.

 

[Merkuri]

...He's comes up and whacks said player with an obviously magic sword (a cavalry sabre) for 15 damage. Player freaks out, saying it's BS that someone did that much damage with a sword, citing the fact that HE can't do that with HIS cavalry sabre...

This is definitely a trust issue. He obviously sees the DM as an adversary, not a referee, and he is assuming the DM is also seeing him as an adversary.

I'm not really sure how I'd deal with this kind of player, but I think the DM should be involved. Somebody, probably the DM, should explain again what the role of the DM is. They might also mention that the DM can't "win". If the DM felt like winning he could simply throw something at the party that's ten levels beyond them, or he could simply say, "you all die."

This player needs to understand that the DM's job is to make a world that's fun and challenging for the players. It is not his job to win. A good DM "wins" when everyone is having a good time.

 

[steeldragons]

Wasn't gonna comment on this thread anymore cuz it sounded fairly "wrapped". But what the heck...

This is definitely a trust issue. He obviously sees the DM as an adversary, not a referee, and he is assuming the DM is also seeing him as an adversary.

I concur...for my 2 coppers worth of armchair psychology. Based on what we've been told, this certainly sounds to be the case.

...I think the DM should be involved. Somebody, probably the DM, should explain again what the role of the DM is. They might also mention that the DM can't "win".

Concur, two time.

If the DM felt like winning he could simply throw something at the party that's ten levels beyond them, or he could simply say, "you all die."

I must admit, many moons ago, I myself was guilty of something LIKE this. The group was completely off topic, not off "rails"...I wasn't railroading them, like "off game." There was all kinds of in-party drama occurring and no one was really playing "in character", simply arguing with each other. It was a good sized group (7 players, 8 or 10 characters, I think). Not low level or inexperienced players, either. We'd been "playing" for over an hour and nothing had happened.

I simply plopped down a dozen ice devils in their midst and started combat.

They were, collectively, incensed. "What?! You can't do that!"

I said, "I can. And I did. Roll initiative." A couple of bloody rounds later I said, "Now, can we move on with the game?" The ice devils teleported away and that was that (I, of course, returned their status to where they were before the devils arrived/removed their injuries.) Everyone was paying attention from there on out and we got to play. And had a great time for the remainder of the night. Cheap trick, but...sometimes players need a..."focusing" hand..a glimpse of just *how* wrong things can go.

Not saying that your DM needs to take a similar tack. In fact, that tack with this player would no doubt prove catastrophic. Just illustrating that them's the reality of the game.

This player needs to understand that the DM's job is to make a world that's fun and challenging for the players. It is not his job to win. A good DM "wins" when everyone is having a good time.

And, I concur three times. That's the golden fleece right there..."A good DM wins when everyone is having a good time." and, I daresay...it reverses also, the players contribute to the DM's good time as well by challenging his/her story, expectations, imagination (i.e. out thinking the DM's preparedness), etc. A game is as good as ALL of its participants (DM and players.)...so if one of the participants is not contributing to the overall fun and enjoyment...then, there's only so much that can be done before the boot is appropriate.

Again, you can be good friends and NOT be good RPG companions. And as "mature adults" everyone involved should be able to recognize that.

--SD