Buying and Selling Magical Items

[KidSnide]

To me, shops of any kind break my suspension of disbelief. The idea that a store keeps a large and ready supply of goods to be sold is a little silly in most D&D contexts. If you want a suit of armor, you go to a smith who can make one for you. Of course, there is a re-sale market, so sufficiently large trade centers will have some supply of common goods (and an undependable supply of unusual items). Outside of that, there are travelling merchants (who keep a supply of what's demanded on their route and what they might have bought to sell back at the city) and - importantly - markets (economic centers that gather periodically).

So, if a PC wants to buy a magic item, they need to either (1) find an artificer who can make the type of item they wish to purchase or (2) find a merchant who happens to have bought one. As a practical level, the likelihood of finding these people depends on the rarity of the item in question. In most worlds, a +1 longsword is common enough that you might find one (or a quality weaponsmith) in most major cities and fairs, whereas a +5 Greatsword of the Infernal might require a trip to the City of Brass.

There's no reason that a GM needs to spend quality playing time on shopping. However, in a more "realistic" gameworld, the GM says "a couple months go by as you find artificers to make the items you intend to buy and good prices for the loot you wish to sell." Just because something is difficult and tedious for the characters doesn't mean that you have to make it difficult and tedious for the players. (And, similarly, just because you want to make something quick and easy for the players, doesn't mean it can't be a huge time sink for the characters.)

-KS

 

[Troll Slayer]

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the notion that magic items should be common place or peddled by street vendors wearing rags. Sorry, it's really early for me, and I haven't had my coffee.

Here's a simplified version of what I'm getting at.

My confusion is that the typical high fantasy DnD world can hardly be classified as medieval. Somewhere along the lines in DnD everyone in the art became pretty, and adventurer became a job description. I think that is where the magic item factory idea became a big issue. I also think it's absurd, which is why I GM games where magic is rare, and "adventuring" is most likely the first sign of insanity and chaos mutation.

The core point of my previous post was that, DnD 3.X and beyond took the magic item factory debate and sent it spiralling out of control. I don't want that to sound like an attack on DnD, I still love playing it, but if I don't ignore the economy of the big name DnD worlds, my brain will melt.

 

[prosfilaes]

Prior to participating in online discussions, it never really occurred to me that anyone would actually sell magic items because the PC's themselves did not do so. The assumption was that if you couldn't buy them back, then they were basically priceless resources and should be hoarded. In all the games I participated in, players never sold magic items. Even the mundane 'sword +1' was tossed into storage with its dozen or more mates and never sold.

Really? They never sold these items? Hmm. In any case, it seems like if they've got a dozen magical swords in storage, and they go away adventuring, there's a source for an "acquisition specialist" who has customers looking for magical weapons.

 

[Troll Slayer]

Really? They never sold these items? Hmm. In any case, it seems like if they've got a dozen magical swords in storage, and they go away adventuring, there's a source for an "acquisition specialist" who has customers looking for magical weapons.

Suddenly the Dragon just built a bigger hoard!

Coincidentally, why aren't there more opportunities to improve the items you have, rather than replace them? That's a topic I'm surprised that I've never seen discussed before.

I'm also reminded of a 17th level telekinesis wizard I played in "munchkin" 3.5 game. He found a use for all those spare +1/+2 weapons rather than keep them stashed away. I admit the image of a guy surrounded by a whirlwind of flying enchanted weapons sounds awesome, but he was completely broken and fun for about two game sessions tops.

 

[Sunseeker]

Coincidentally, why aren't there more opportunities to improve the items you have, rather than replace them? That's a topic I'm surprised that I've never seen discussed before.

I believe the logic is that each weapon produced is unique, and is made with it's magical qualities upon manufacture. Now, that said, I don't think it's unreasonable for a wizard, or a smith, to sell "enchancements" where if you have the appropriate ingredients or cash, they'll "improve" your weapon.

The downside is of course, that replacing weapons means you're selling weapons, means you're earning gold. Upgrading weapons means you are spending gold, and presumably, villains would be less likely to drop "Epic +1 Mace" and instead leave you with "Magical Enhancement Dust".

 

[Dausuul]

The whole business of selling vs. not selling excess magic items is interesting. Like Celebrim, I never encountered the idea of routinely selling items before 3E. (Of course, part of that may have had to do with the fact that my usual DM in college was a skinflint who begrudged us every scrap of treasure. He was also the best DM I've ever played under.) Magic items were hoarded until a use could be found for them.

Mostly, I think the reason for this was that pre-3E, there simply wasn't that much use for gold unless you were name-level and building castles. Sure, you had to shell out a fair bit of cash to outfit yourself with the best nonmagical gear (full plate armor cost upwards of 1,500 gold as I recall), but once you had that, everything else was pointless luxuries. Not to say you wouldn't spend on luxury items, you certainly would, but you'd never give up something as rare and precious as a magic item for them.

3E moved the buying and selling of magic items into standard practice. I'm aware that some groups did it pre-3E, but it wasn't an established norm and the 2E DMG was quite specific on the point that there was No Such Thing as a magic item shop. Once it became established that you could buy magic items for cash, suddenly the two-tiered economy--magic items on one level, money on another--collapsed into a single tier and everything was fungible.

 

[TheYeti1775]

Its a matter of flavor per individual world. None of us is more right than another on it.

I've played in magic poor worlds where a +1 item was a blessing to get.
I've played in magic rich worlds where a +1 item was a farmer's plow.

My personal favorite is the approach of simplicity.
Villages you are lucky to find potions.
Towns there are a few places that might have an item or two.
Cities, yes there are some minor magic shops.
Large cities, moving up in the world, you might find 'medium' level items.
Capital Metropolis, your best luck for finding it will be here on this plane.
Planar areas, this is where the truely rare stuff hangs out.

Now that scale gets adjust to the game world I'm running at the time.
That's what I consider my base.
Than you have to add in magic level of the world, adventurers in the world, legality of magics in the world, etc.

A common +1 Longsword in Forgotten Realms is major find in Darksun in any edition.

 

[Troll Slayer]

I believe the logic is that each weapon produced is unique, and is made with it's magical qualities upon manufacture. Now, that said, I don't think it's unreasonable for a wizard, or a smith, to sell "enchancements" where if you have the appropriate ingredients or cash, they'll "improve" your weapon.

The downside is of course, that replacing weapons means you're selling weapons, means you're earning gold. Upgrading weapons means you are spending gold, and presumably, villains would be less likely to drop "Epic +1 Mace" and instead leave you with "Magical Enhancement Dust".

Plus the other issue is the villain will still have a +1 Mace because "magical enhancement dust" doesn't bash in PC skulls too well on it's own. Thus the insanity perpetuates itself. It's like a fantasy arms race!

 

[Dverge]

For fighter type characters, the main equipment they use is as important as their personality, and likely more important than their background.

A big question is not shopping vs finding/granted but rather, can my character get the equipment usable by the character need for the level and encounters.

With selling/shopping there is a very good chance that the character gains the types of equipment he needs (somewhat close to where they should be mechanically for balance) and is also able to get low level utility items of choice.

With Granted (GM gives out loot with a bit of thought).

Good: You find a +3 Weapon. (I use a Dwarven Battlehammer...)

Bad: You find a +3 Rapier. (Tosses it onto the party loot list)

Very Bad: You find an Elven crafted Warhammer with woodland scenes on it in delicate filigree. It's a +6 Flaming Burst, Undead Bane weapon. (Looks at the 6 Battlehammer feats that I'd no longer be able to use)(Item is never seen again)(Am a little bit annoyed that the GM want's me to be grateful for something that is so close to useful I can almost taste it, but it mostly feels like a knife twisting).

With Found. Yep, another polearm. Add it to the 34 we already have. Maybe one of these day's we'll actually manage to roll a longsword +1. The survivor of the Reservoir Dogs to keep it will need to gather another party. You start with equipment that fits your character, and 90% of what you find after that is trash. Pretending that items are rare and special wears a bit thin when you need them to even effect what you're up against, you have dozens of them, and you can't find anything usable (that fits the character). That you can't sell it is just an extra annoyance.

That the party once fought in their skivvies with clubs against a Rust Monster, or that the Knight had to wrestle a Werewolf using a silver dagger once is fun and great for stories. That the Knight is stuck using studded leather and a dagger for levels (because he can't get magical knightly weapons and armor) is just screwing over the character.

 

[Sunseeker]

Plus the other issue is the villain will still have a +1 Mace because "magical enhancement dust" doesn't bash in PC skulls too well on it's own. Thus the insanity perpetuates itself. It's like a fantasy arms race!

Well, generally when enemies don't drop the weapons they're wiedling, I work under the assumption that in the fight you damaged/destroyed it beyond usability. The "magic dust" was just something you found in his coatpocket.

Honestly I like enemies to have "hidden hoards" nearby. Certainly adventurers have faced this person before or they would not be so feared. And clearly, those adventurers did not do a good enough job. The villain themselves will, if anything, drop little more than the clothes on their back, which after the thrashing you just gave him, aren't worth much.

And yes, an "arms race" is actually a good way to phrase it. Your enemies are constantly improving, either because they are a running story-long foe or because higher-ranking foes have now heard of your name. Not to mention you're competing against your allies to stay on par. One guy gets too many magical items, and they start to pull ahead. So an "arms race" is actually a very good term for it.