Speeding up combat?

[Jon_Dahl]

I know this is something that has been discussed to the death, but...
I've noticed that one of the problems in my games is the slowness of battles. In the last session there was four opponents with combat-trained mounts and one opponent with three attacks vs. four PC's. This all happened in a difficult terrain in darkness.
The battle itself lasted for two hours, which is sad. I've tried my best to analyze the battle and what made it drag for so long.

First of all, 1/3 or ½ of the rolls were useless or near useless. You throw a small dart which does 1 hp of damage and reduces your dex by one. Few rolls are needed and then re-calculating your AC and ranged attack. It's useless and slow.
Secondly, trying lot of tricks made the fight slow. This was more of a PC thing really... The wizard wanted to use Detect Thoughts in a middle of a fight. Ok?
Thirdly, there was lot of movement in difficult terrain. Trying to move even three squares was hard, so it took time to re-position everyone every round.

In the end one of players refused to fight the last opponent, because the battle had been dragging on for so long. That was also sad.

But no matter how I look into this, it's hard to see any DM pull this fight faster than one and half hours... I was constantly changing the turns and rounds and pushing the battle on. But it seemed endless.

 

[IronWolf]

These questions can be difficult to answer without actually seeing the combat in question and how it actually progressed. And what might work well for one table might not work for another. With that said, some thoughts.

First, roll your to-hit dice and damage dice together. If a critter has three attacks, roll all three at once, including damage. Try to get your players in this habit as well. It does speed things up if everyone is doing this.

Ability score damage can often be figured pretty quickly as well. Using the dexterity damage scenario, simply ask did the dex loss cause the person in question to lose some of their modifier? For example, last night in a combat I ran, the party mage hit one of my baddies for 4 dex damage. I made a quick note that his AC just dropped by 2, his ranged attacks dropped by 2 and his reflex saves by 2. It only took a few seconds to make these notes and keep rolling forward.

Regarding the Detect Thoughts, even that shouldn't slow things down too much even though it doesn't seem the most optimal move. First the spell requires concentration to keep it going. So if someone attacks him there is a chance the spell is disrupted. Even if done from a safe spot where he avoids combat the first round is simply does he sense thoughts in the area, easy answer - yes. Second round is number of thinking minds, another easy answer. And then, if the third round is reached, surface thoughts of one of the minds - which should be pretty easy to come up with on the fly. So, while an unusual thing to do, I don't see it as taking an unusually long time to make rulings on.

I don't see terrain as taking a terrible toll on the length of combat either. Even in unhampered terrain people are apt to need to re-position themselves and such.

Again, it is sort of hard to comment without actually seeing the combat in action, so take the above with the grain of salt.

 

[brainstorm]

I had a serious problem with this, so much so that I had to stop my campaign and re-evaluate whether I wanted to stay with 4E or go back to 3.5. I started a new campaign, stayed with 4E and changed several aspects of my encounter design.

1. I used to try use monsters that were higher level than the PCs. No more. All monsters are the same level or level-1.

2. I used to use monsters of various roles in each combat. No more. I now pick one or two monsters of the roles I want to the combat to focus around and then I use tons of minions to fill up the xp budget balance.

3. I upped monster damage to ensure that when they hit, they hit hard.

4. I imposed a table rule of a maximum of 1 minute per player to complete their turn.

5. I required all players to use power cards and encouraged the use of the Character Builder. In fact, I actually update the sheets for 3 of the players that don't have subscriptions to DDI.

Those are the main things I changed and what a difference its made. Before, combats would take a minimum of an hour and more often than not, much longer than that. Now they rarely reach a full hour and usually last 30-45 minutes.

I spent a great deal of time analyzing what was wrong with my game and I strongly recommend any dm to use a digital recorder to record your sessions for post game analysis.

 

[Rune]

I've noticed that one of the problems in my games is the slowness of battles. In the last session there was four opponents with combat-trained mounts and one opponent with three attacks vs. four PC's.

So, what's that? Nine enemy attacks to each of the PCs' four? Assuming your players aren't in it primarily for the tactical challenge (which seems to be the case), they'll likely stay more interested with a higher percentage of the action coming from their side of the screen.

Consider consolidating enemy attacks to simpler, cooler abilities that take little time to resolve. For instance, no attack for the mounts, but an added die of hoof damage to any successful melee attack by the rider.

Perhaps, take that three attack fellow and combine those attacks into one attack that has elements of all three in it, powered down a bit, and perhaps with a slightly lower hit bonus.

This all happened in a difficult terrain in darkness.

Two terrain features in a battle are not as likely to be memorable for the right reasons as one really good one. Difficult terrain does not seem all that interesting in a combat with mounts, but blocking terrain could be very interesting if those mounts are large size and have to maneuver through--dense woods, say. Darkness is only really relevant if someone in the combat has a means of seeing through it. Just pick one really good thing and remember that if one side is picking the spot--as they would in an ambush, for instance--they will choose terrain that gives them an advantage.

First of all, 1/3 or ½ of the rolls were useless or near useless. You throw a small dart which does 1 hp of damage and reduces your dex by one. Few rolls are needed and then re-calculating your AC and ranged attack. It's useless and slow.

First, drop the hp damage from the dart, as it is needless book-keeping. Give the PCs a counter each time they're hit by the dart. Each two counters they have accrued = -1 to all dex-based attacks, AC, and reflex (in 3.x edition).

Secondly, trying lot of tricks made the fight slow. This was more of a PC thing really... The wizard wanted to use Detect Thoughts in a middle of a fight. Ok?

The PCs' tricks are likely a means of maintaining interest. You should never discourage that kind of thinking. If they want to try something you did not expect, give them a little something for it. The Detect Thoughts could give a little one-time bonus to defense, for instance.

In the end one of players refused to fight the last opponent, because the battle had been dragging on for so long. That was also sad.

Refused to fight because that player had other obligations, or because s/he was frustrated, or both? In this situation, perhaps the best thing to do would be for that last opponent to take stock of the situation, flee to fight another day, or surrender.

But no matter how I look into this, it's hard to see any DM pull this fight faster than one and half hours... I was constantly changing the turns and rounds and pushing the battle on. But it seemed endless.

And, then, there's always mop-up. If opponents are resolved to fight to the death, your PCs are winning, and the fight is dragging on, just tell your players that they achieved the goals they were after in this combat and be done with it. Don't be afraid to gloss over something if the PCs have no interest in it.

At any rate, good luck next time, and remember...streamline! Keep the good! Ditch the unnecessary!

 

[Haltherrion]

Well... at the risk of starting an edition war, there are other games and editions that are well suited for speeding things up and giving players a "comparable amount of stuff to do each round." I think that's one of the virtues of 4E to be honest.

But in general, I think of this from an entertainment perspective: the players want to do a "reasonable" amount of stuff per unit time. You can go with systems that make sure each person's round (or other quanta of action) provides similar satisfaction or you can make sure the rounds occur with high frequency. On the latter score, players have plenty of time before their turn to figure out what they are going to do, don't give them more than a few minutes to decide. If they take too long, skip them. In most game systems, a round is short, six seconds or so. That doesn't give the PC a lot of time to futz around. Make them move fast. Yes, a player losing his turn will be briefly annoyed but after a few lost turns, they'll get on board.

You don't need to be a dick about it but nudging them to act more quickly does wonders. It is possible to move through a complete round of combat for all PCs in five minutes if you keep the players focused and make them pre-determine their actions. If they complain that they don't have time to assimilate the results of the previous PC's actions remind them that they are making split decisions and need to act with imperfect understanding.

 

[Rune]

Well... at the risk of starting an edition war, there are other games and editions that are well suited for speeding things up and giving players a "comparable amount of stuff to do each round." I think that's one of the virtues of 4E to be honest

Interesting. I have found that 4E is so tactics-oriented that combats are much longer than combats in 3.x were--and less encouraging of creative adaptation on the field. Part of that, though is playing with tactics-oriented players (in the end, I had to split into two groups--the tactics group and the role-playin' group--both 4E, the latter much looser with the rules.

If they take too long, skip them. In most game systems, a round is short, six seconds or so. That doesn't give the PC a lot of time to futz around. Make them move fast. Yes, a player losing his turn will be briefly annoyed but after a few lost turns, they'll get on board.

I've done that for a decade. It works well for the tactics-oriented folk, but I almost lost a good and reliable role-player over it. And I didn't even think I was being that harsh.

In the end, we came up with a system that rewarded readiness instead of penalizing the lack--if, when the DM says, "it's your turn," the player is ready, the player takes a "+1 to-anything-token" which can be used at any time as a no-action, can be used cumulatively, and lasts until the end of the encounter. If the player forgets to take a token, clearly s/he wasn't ready.

This has worked well for the role-players, but would be abused to no end by the tactics-guys.

There are quite a few other things I've done with the role-player group to streamline things, but I've already gone a bit off-topic, so I'll save those for another discussion.

 

[GreyLord]

If combat is going on for longer than needed, the PC's are really in no danger of really dying or serious injury...then speed it on it's way. By this I mean, reduce the enemy HP and let them just die already. If there is no threat to the PC's there's no reason to drag the battle out just to have them fight for the sake of fighting. Lower the enemy HP and end it.

If it's a matter of not being able to hit each other...do the opposite. RAISE the enemy HP slightly (not massively...but slightly) and LOWER the enemy AC. Make the enemy easier to hit...

Instead of raising the enemy HP you could also raise the enemy's ability to hit by the same amount that you lowered it's AC...hence in someways balancing it out. Everyone hits more often...and combat gets quicker and deadlier.

 

[howandwhy99]

Pacing combat is partially about type of opponents the PCs face and the number of everyone involved. How the group works together also affects play speed. As does the DMs ability to run the opposition.

What determines combat speed more than any other factor is the combat system. Complexity is good, but complexity gained through elegance and simplicity enables a much faster design. If a player has 50 defined options to pick from, they are going to spend a long time strategizing. If they have only a few, then they can prepare before it's their group or individual turn. I still prefer hiding the system behind the screen to enable any imaginable option for players, but still an elegant system to engage with for faster play.

As long as combat has a high degree of complexity, it's going to be slower than areas that do not. But, if a fighter class is not an option in the game, it isn't necessary to provide a high complexity combat system. A single die roll could take care of it.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I know this is something that has been discussed to the death, but...But no matter how I look into this, it's hard to see any DM pull this fight faster than one and half hours... I was constantly changing the turns and rounds and pushing the battle on. But it seemed endless.

I think you did the best you could from the sounds of things. If this was more of a one-off then I would not worry too much. Perhaps the only thing you could have done would have been to prepare the players for a long difficult encounter. Tell them that, "there are light issues, awkward terrain, multiple opponents and so small advancements are going to be hard won." If the player's mindset is set up for a long difficult battle, then you are truly doing the best you can.

However, if you find that this style of combat is happening more and more often, then you need to re-evaluate what you guys are doing. I find that some players (whose characters are usually spellcasters) have a lot of trouble adjusting to different circumstances, and so they will re-engineer their options when it is their turn. This will slow down combat tenfold more than a player rolling 20 dice and evaluating them (I still don't know why people harp on about rolling dice). In 3.x, I have found spell cards invaluable in speeding things up. In 4e, power cards are mandatory for all players.

I like the +1 token idea mentioned above (given if the player says straight on their turn what they are doing, and does it.) That to me will speed up play, give advantage to players paying attention to the game, and since these will be handed out more so to the fighter types than caster types, it will balance things back somewhat when the play gets to high level (and really bogs down).

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Haltherrion]

Interesting. I have found that 4E is so tactics-oriented that combats are much longer than combats in 3.x were--and less encouraging of creative adaptation on the field. Part of that, though is playing with tactics-oriented players (in the end, I had to split into two groups--the tactics group and the role-playin' group--both 4E, the latter much looser with the rules.

I've seen long 4E combats but I've also seen some very crisp quick ones. The players need to be focused and someone (usually the ref) needs to move things along but our group has found the regularization of action types and balancing of the classes to enhance combat speed and we do like our tactical options.

On the class balance score, I think that it is just as important to players feeling combat is "fast" as actual round resolution speed. A bored player is going to find anything slow and in some D&D systems some classes don't have all that much to do. You can make a case 4E over did the leveling but they did make sure everyone has about the same amount of stuff to do per round and about the same amount of impact.