When not to allow a reflex save?

[orion90000]

I have gone round and round the rules trying to find exceptions regarding reflex saves. Am I completely overlooking them?

Here is the general question: My cleric casts sound burst on an enemy, which then failed its Fortitude save. The enemy is now stunned. The Sorcerer casts fireball. I couldn't find anything saying that the stunned enemy couldn't roll a reflex save for half damage.

I'm thinking that a stunned character (momentarily unconscious) wouldn't be able to react to the fireball. Then I got to wondering if at any point you become flat-footed or simply denied your dex modifier to armor if you should also lose your dex modifier to Reflex saves.

Help me out.

 

[Dandu]

Paralyzed does not allow for reflex saves. Stunned is weaker than paralyzed, however.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you're conscious and you can move, you get a reflex save.

Stunned doesn't stop you from getting one, and flatfooted certainly does not (the whole point of reflex saves is how fast you react to something, including unexpected things!).

 

[Sekhmet]

If you're conscious and you can move, you get a reflex save.

Stunned doesn't stop you from getting one, and flatfooted certainly does not (the whole point of reflex saves is how fast you react to something, including unexpected things!).

I would argue against this ruling.
If you've ever had a concussive grenade explode near you, you'd understand that temporary stunning effects throw you off so badly that your reflexes are shot until you recover at least partially (usually takes 4-6 seconds, almost a full round).

Sound Burst is basically a concussive blast without the blinding light attached, so I would rule that Sound Burst's stunning effect would also prevent a Reflex save.

SRD says: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

 

[Dandu]

It helps if you think of it as luck combined with ability to dodge. You still get a bit of luck even when stunned.

(Interesting. As written, few (if any) conditions specifically rule out making reflex saves, though certain conditions that set your Dex to zero would definitely penalize it.

Doesn't make a lot of sense, but hey you can make a reflex save vs a Fireball in a 5x5 closet and a natural 20 always succeeds no matter what the situation...)

 

[Ahnehnois]

It is an oddity of the rules that a character who loses his Dex bonus to AC still has his Dex applied to reflex saves. You could certainly argue that a stunned character should lose his Dex bonus to ref saves as well.

The rules though, allow you a save at your full bonuss unless explicitly stated otherwise (e.g. helpless).

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

No, it's not an oddity. Reflex save is not the same thing as armor class. Just because you're flatfooted doesn't mean you're less able to suddenly react to something. They represent completely different things.

And stunned in D&D is less severe overall than what we'd take it to mean in real life. It's a semi common status effect that can be inflicted and is already pretty viscious considering how much a D&D creature can do in the span of seconds, it really does not need any help adding to the explicit negative effects laid out in game terms, nor should it gain any "realism" buffs.

 

[Dandu]

"You're stunned! You can't make a reflex save against my Fireball, it's physically impossible!"

"What's a Fireball?"

"It's a magical spell conjured into existence with nonsense words, hand gestures, and bat poo."

 

[Jhaelen]

The rules though, allow you a save at your full bonuss unless explicitly stated otherwise (e.g. helpless).

Indeed. This is not a question of realism, it's a question of game balance. Ignore the rules at your own peril!

 

[irdeggman]

It is an oddity of the rules that a character who loses his Dex bonus to AC still has his Dex applied to reflex saves. You could certainly argue that a stunned character should lose his Dex bonus to ref saves as well.

The rules though, allow you a save at your full bonuss unless explicitly stated otherwise (e.g. helpless).

No they don't.

They allow you to make the save with your Dex mod applied - if your Dex is modified you use your modified score to determine the modifier to apply (whether posistive or negative).

Reflex Saving Throw: 1d20 + base save bonus + Dexterity
modifier

Flat-footed does not remove the Dex mod it only prevents you from applying it to your AC. In fact it only prevents you from applying the "bonus" to AC - there is a whole argument about suddening increasing your AC by being flat-footed and losing the "penalty" to AC.

You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed.