Horn of Self-Tooting (from, Best 3pp products...)

[pawsplay]

Just because I think it's beneficial to show things from the 3pp side every once in a while.

From http://www.enworld.org/forum/pathfi...hird-party-publisher-pathfinder-products.html

This might not be the most popular thing to say, but ...

I find it kind of irritating how fast this thread has changed into an advertising competition. The way I understood the OP, he wanted users to recommend 3rd party products from their own experience - which is fine and an interesting topic, because most contributors to this thread have given their reasons for liking a particular product so that anyone who shares their opinions and interests can then check out said product.

What I don't get is why a lot of publishers see this as an opportunity to chime in and tell everybody how great their own products are. I mean, sure, most small press publishers have to raise awareness for their product, but doing it in a thread such as this not only defeats the thread's purpose, but also annoys me (and makes me reconsider purchasing from someone who feels the need to advertise their product so 'aggressively').

I get that you think your products are great, but that's like a publisher reviewing their own product. And I (and probably a lot of other people) have stopped buying things just because they are advertised, instead listening to customer feedback. So, what I'm saying is: let other voices be heard, and you will benefit more in the long term, I guess.

We now return you to your scheduled programming.

Then you are probably not a publisher. I hope you won't lose any sleep if I tell you I occasionally run searches on Google specifically so I can jump in and thank people for mentioning my work. Communication and receptiveness to feedback are a critical component of brand-building. At the same time, relentless self-promotion, as you noted, can be tacky and smothering. That is why I monitored that thread patiently, waiting for someone to mention my product, before jumping in.

 

[Dark Mistress]

Yep totally understandable why 3pp companies do that. It is part of the reason I started doing reviews. I got annoyed by the lack of quality reviews. To many was short and or only gave the authors opinion of the product. So I decided to write them listing a lot of what is in them and then offering my opinion on them. To help people find stuff they like and hopefully help 3pp sell more products. Which is good for me since if the 3pp I like sell more means more for me to buy.

Speaking of which i am still waiting for your next book. I liked the first one and would love to see another.

 

[Ryltar]

pawsplay:

As I said in the post you quoted, I understand the need for small-press publishers to raise brand (and product) awareness. However, I disagree with the method of, as you put it, tooting your own horn. If someone mentions your product and you chime in with a post saying 'hey, thank you for the kind opinion!' (while having a link to your store/product page in your .sig), that is one thing (and something I can accept in the context of the original thread). It's something else entirely, however, to post and say 'Oh, if you liked X, you will also like product Y and Z, because they are TEH AWESOMESAUCE!!!!11111, and oh, here are links, and some more links, and also you can get my product in this store and that and ...'. The latter example may be a slight hyperbole , but I think you can see what I mean. The difference between tacky self-advertising and a subtle 'show of presence' is slight, but I consider it important. In the end, I believe that if you put out a quality product, people will buy it and it will see recognition, even if it is by word of mouth at first. The time where advertising was a major selling point is just over today, when anyone is but one google search away from any given website that displays customer ratings or, in this case, reviews.

IMHO, YMMV and so on.

 

[pawsplay]

Can you point out where someone in the original thread stepped over that line for you?

 

[Mark Chance]

Yep totally understandable why 3pp companies do that. It is part of the reason I started doing reviews.

And believe you me, those reviews are appreciated. I even appreciate the bad ones (not that you've ever given me a bad review, and not that I've ever had more than one). Honest reviews are valuable for me, both for the feedback about content quality and for the small boosts in sales that they generate.

I'm barely a publisher. I'm a one-man operation who tries to crank out one new PDF a month so that I can supplement my income from teaching and share some ideas about things that I think might make your game better. So, for example, if I see a thread on an RPG site wherein someone is, say, complaining about 3.5-esque Craft rules, and I chime in about my Making Craft Work, and then some poster gets all snarky because I've crossed some imaginary line, it's a tad irritating.

Fortunately, I've got skin thick enough to hang sheetrock from.

 

[Ryltar]

[MENTION=15538]pawsplay[/MENTION], I didn't want to single someone out publicly, so I sent you a PM. Lots of edits in the original thread, too.

One thing, though: I would have had far less problems with the original thread if, say, a publisher would have found it within him-or herself to actually praise another publisher's product because they like them as a gamer, and only then going on to suggest their own stuff. E.g.:

"I myself am partial to ABC by DEF press, which has an excellent XYZ in it. This has come in handy in my own games, when I (insert anecdote here). If you are looking for further ideas in that vein, may I suggest you check out (own product advertisement here)."

It still serves the purpose of drawing attention to the publisher's own product, but isn't as glaring and still serves the purpose of someone who is just in there for recommendations 'by gamers, for gamers'.

 

[Ryltar]

[MENTION=2795]Mark Chance[/MENTION]: I hope you weren't talking about me in your post, as the situation you described is entirely different from the one in the original thread. If someone actually asks for product suggestions on a particular topic, I have no problem if someone 'toots their own horn', as pawsplay put it. However, I feel it is out of place in a general query for impressive/great 3pp products if someone (caution, set hyperbole detectors to maximum ) uses that opportunity to advertise their whole product catalogue.

 

[Angellis_ater]

I'll take a bow and say I probably tooted our horn too much in the previous thread. Better to be honest about making a mistake, than to hide it.

Anyway, since we're here TO toot our own horn, Dreamscarred Press has just released Psionics Unleashed - a new Core Psionics Ruleset for Pathfinder. If you play Pathfinder, take a look at what we got to offer.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I'd also agree with it being a matter of degree.

When I asked for the best pathfinder products out there, I'd have been happy to hear from a company about what they sincerely thought was their very best product for pathfinder.

On the other hand, I would not think much of their opinion if it were merely "here's our newest product and we want to generate more sales/recognition by mentioning it."

Note that I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'm just stating that there is a difference of degree (and perhaps a difference of type as well?) here.


Like if, say, Bill Webb from Necromancer games chimed in a "what was the best d20 product?" thread to say that he acknowledged his own bias but that he thought that Necromancer Games's best product was Rappan Athuk, then that'd be kinda cool...and particularly interesting info, straight from the horse's mouth.

But (again using him as an example) if he said, you should totally check out Slumbering Tsar! It's our newest product out there!

That would be quite different.


(Note that Slumbering Tsar is a fantastic piece of work, and I personally am very excited about my subscription. I used this as an example because I actually think ST is a fine product, and didn't want to pick on one I thought poorly of.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Sorry, can't resist this one:


The Horn of Self-Tooting.

This is an apparently ordinary but very high quality horn, but in reality it is magical.

6 versions exist: Lesser (+3), normal (+6), greater (+9), lesser epic (+12), epic (+15) and greater epic (+18)

To use it a character must play it for a period of time. At the end of the playing they make a perform check at the DC of the horn, failure means they suffer a charisma penalty equal to the horn's power, success means a charisma bonus equal to the horn's power. The effect lasts for the same period the horn was played. The minimum playing interval is the bonus of the horn, playing it for a shorter period always results in failure. Playing the horn is tiring, the DC rises by 1 for every minute of play.

Price?