[WotC's recent insanity] I think I've Figured It Out

WotC has that too.

Hate to break it to you! I know you dislike WotC and really have a thing against 4e. But here's the magical secret - the guys that made 4e? They really like it. The guys making Essentials? They think it's an awesome game that's a perfect mix of mechanics and fluff. When TSR made second edition, it's developers saw it as a labor of love. When Gygax first wrote down the vague ideas for D&D, he did it because he thought it would be something really amazing. And when 5e comes out, the men and women that create it will think "We've done something really amazing here."

Not to break any hearts, but you go into the gaming industry because you love it. Nobody makes a tabletop game for the money.

Sorry to break it to you, but I don't feel the same passion or enjoyment of the game from WotC game designers for 4E. When I read 4E, I see a passionless book focused mostly on mechanics and game balance. Story is secondary to game mechanics. This is the first edition of D&D I ever felt that with. I think 4E limits the game designers more than they have ever been limited in the past. Some of us gamers think D&D is modular and limiting to us? Must be a strange sort of dream and nightmare for the WotC game designers to finally be working on the game they've always loved, but not really.

Back in most editions game designers had a very open arena for design. They could make anything they wanted in whatever way they wanted and then test it. If it worked, it might be published. If it didn't, back to testing it. They could design spells based on text they had written, class abilities based on what something they read and felt would make a great class or PrC (for 3rd edition) for D&D, and they could do whatever they wanted for adventures, they would write up ideas for class powers and toss it in.

I would bet money 4E is more limiting on creativity on the game designers than any previous edition of D&D. It is the most restrictive on game design. I as a player looked at each paragon path and couldn't believe how utterly lacking in creativity each paragon path was. You generally had three abilities. One involved the spending of a hero point. The other two usually involved a utility power and an attack power. Each paragon path was designed in the exact same fashion as the other. Never have I seen that in D&D in 30 years.

I think a lot of the guys that have stuck around do love the game. Would love to keep D&D going strong for each generation. You don't get into game design unless you love it. I understand that. But being in the tiny creative box 4E placed the game designers in can't be all that enjoyable.

All game designers are creative by nature. They have to combine mechanics with story all the time. Now the mechanics are at the forefront,.Like if say Mike Mearls wants to design a paladin, it is very important he design it in a very modular fashion. Pick an archetype for it, make sure it has a marking ability, make sure it has powers that are either limited by weapon type or don't exceed the powers of any other starting class, stay completely within the confines of the D&D rule system regardless of whether he feels the archetype should have certain abilities to represent the feel of the archetype.

You make a Paladin at Paizo and you try to figure out what would make for a cool Paladin. The feel of the class is paramount. The game designers at Paizo are able to decide what a Holy Knight should be without first deciding what type it is (Controller or what not). They do not need to fit any particular Paragon path or epic path. They can make up a power completely in text and toss it on and it doesn't have to last only one round or be a save every round power or be used per encounter. They can make it anywhere from instantaneous to an hour per level or certain times per day whatever they come up with. Pathfinder game design is not without limits, but it is still the type of open-ended game design many of us have enjoyed from the game designers the past 30 years.

For WotC designers the modular rules of the archetype are paramount, the feel of the archetype secondary. And the reverse at Paizo, like it should be in a creative game.

Imagine spell design now for WotC game designers. You know each player is very limited in the number of spells they will ever have. So making new spells is almost a waste of time because they will never see much use unless they exactly match another type of spell that has certain capabilities. For example, in my 4E group every caster tried to get the spell that had an extended duration like Flaming Sphere. It became the new must have spell because it could do damage every round. No one shot Fireball because Scorching Blast did enough AoE to kill minions like a controller is supposed to do, but Fireball did less aggregate damage than Flaming Sphere beacuse it hit once and was done. Most creatures that aren't minions could easily survive it, so to keep damage every round Flaming Sphere and spells and effects like it became paramount so the wizard player wasn't forced to resort to his at wills every round.

Is that fun arcane casting? Wasn't as a player for myself used to the creative spell design of past editions where I had many, many choices as a spell caster to handle an encounter whether by damage, crowd control, guile, or the like. Spell designers could be sure that if they designed a good spell, it would see use by casters, added to a great many spell books, and enjoyed. The spell didn't even have to do damage to be effective. Now the natural limitation imposed upon casters severely limits spell design because most won't see the light of day. And 99% of combat spells cause damage in a damage focused game. No more creative use of non-damaging spells in combat because for the most part they don't exist.

That's a pretty small box for a game designer to be in. If anyone was shafted worse than the players, it was the 4E game designers. Not only did they probably receive less capitalization from the bean counters at Hasbro/WotC. But probably had strict orders to make the new edition of the rules MMORPG friendly because it is obvious the ultimate goal is to leverage D&D into the MMORPG market.

Smart marketing. I'd probably do the same thing. With the massive amount of background material, the smartest move Hasbro could make to leverage the D&D brand into a huge money maker is to hire some great MMORPG designers and let them take all the creative material built up over 30 years of D&D and turn it into the greatest MMORPG ever designed.

But we shall see how Hasbro/WotC does it. We'll see if that is the real intent of Hasbro/WotC or merely an assumption on my part. I think D&D will be an MMORPG in ten years with a limited pen and paper addition. But we shall see.
 

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Sorry to break it to you, but I don't feel the same passion or enjoyment of the game from WotC game designers for 4E. When I read 4E, I see a passionless book focused mostly on mechanics and game balance. Story is secondary to game mechanics. This is the first edition of D&D I ever felt that with. I think 4E limits the game designers more than they have ever been limited in the past. Some of us gamers think D&D is modular and limiting to us? Must be a strange sort of dream and nightmare for the WotC game designers to finally be working on the game they've always loved, but not really.

That

Back in most editions game designers had a very open arena for design. They could make anything they wanted in whatever way they wanted and then test it. If it worked, it might be published. If it didn't, back to testing it. They could design spells based on text they had written, class abilities based on what something they read and felt would make a great class or PrC (for 3rd edition) for D&D, and they could do whatever they wanted for adventures, they would write up ideas for class powers and toss it in.

Sounds

I would bet money 4E is more limiting on creativity on the game designers than any previous edition of D&D. It is the most restrictive on game design. I as a player looked at each paragon path and couldn't believe how utterly lacking in creativity each paragon path was. You generally had three abilities. One involved the spending of a hero point. The other two usually involved a utility power and an attack power. Each paragon path was designed in the exact same fashion as the other. Never have I seen that in D&D in 30 years.

Like

I think a lot of the guys that have stuck around do love the game. Would love to keep D&D going strong for each generation. You don't get into game design unless you love it. I understand that. But being in the tiny creative box 4E placed the game designers in can't be all that enjoyable.

A

All game designers are creative by nature. They have to combine mechanics with story all the time. Now the mechanics are at the forefront,.Like if say Mike Mearls wants to design a paladin, it is very important he design it in a very modular fashion. Pick an archetype for it, make sure it has a marking ability, make sure it has powers that are either limited by weapon type or don't exceed the powers of any other starting class, stay completely within the confines of the D&D rule system regardless of whether he feels the archetype should have certain abilities to represent the feel of the archetype.

Personal

You make a Paladin at Paizo and you try to figure out what would make for a cool Paladin. The feel of the class is paramount. The game designers at Paizo are able to decide what a Holy Knight should be without first deciding what type it is (Controller or what not). They do not need to fit any particular Paragon path or epic path. They can make up a power completely in text and toss it on and it doesn't have to last only one round or be a save every round power or be used per encounter. They can make it anywhere from instantaneous to an hour per level or certain times per day whatever they come up with. Pathfinder game design is not without limits, but it is still the type of open-ended game design many of us have enjoyed from the game designers the past 30 years.

Problem


Also, could you not write fifty page essays? Nobody is going to respond to them.

Besides which, your entire post refers to the same tired old thing I've already refueted - this idea that 4e's <nouns> are somehow less then other editions <nouns> because they started with a mechanical basis first.

Whinge away about 4e paladins, but at the end of the day, they're far, far better at being holy knights then the hilariously pathetic 3e ones ever were.

Oh wait, you're also upset that classes other then wizards have things to do, and wizards no longer rule the entire world. That's not a bug. It's a feature. And it makes 4e a far better game and one that far more closely resembles literature and narrative archtypes and perspectives then 3e ever did. Because here's a tip - there's heroes that rely on wit, ones that rely on strength, there's wise old mentors and cunning thieves, but there's no wizard archtype. There's deus ex machina, but that shouldn't be playable.

The problem with the pre-4e wizard is this:

Imagine you are making a game based somewhat loosely on the Trojan War and the Odyssey. You tell your character that they'll be fighting on the side of thee Greeks, and should take inspirations from the likes of Odysseus and Agamemnon, proud and daring warriors and men of battle.


Then one guy shouts "I call dibs on Poseidon!"
 

I think of RPGs as being like opera. ...

Trying to create an accessible game is great, but I think it's just a mistake to think of D&D as a sort of product you can sell to people the way you do Scattergories, or even Settlers. ...

In general, companies do not do well that try to make products other than what they have always made, unless the new direction is obviously demanded by the current business situation.

Bottom line: Who really thinks D&D should play like Savage Worlds and sell like Civilization?

Those goals can be reconciled (well, proportionally, as a slice of Civilization sales would be acceptable), but not with half measures, and thus not without considerable risk. It is very much a piece of Napolean's maxim, "If you go to take Vienna, then take Vienna"--with the implicit statement that if you don't think you can, don't even start. (Hope I got that reasonablely close from memory.) Or if you prefer, "There is no try. Only do or do not." :)

You may manage to write an opera that revitalizes the genre and is immensely popular compared to any current opera. You won't do it writing an opera that is mostly like every other opera currently playing. So the risk is unacceptable most of the time (maybe even 100%).

That is another way of looking at what I said up-topic. It's not design or player base preferences (let alone video games) keeping D&D from taking off. It is that the risks of doing what would be necessary to make it take off are not acceptable.
 
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So...I can't do multi-quote. But to anyone who responded to my post a few pages back, please just ignore the first bit. I broke my no posting unless I've had adequate sleep rule.

The thing is, WotC and I had a really nasty, neighbors-calling-the-cops kind of breakup a while back after years of happiness.
Occasionally I behave like the bitter ex-girlfriend in a moment of weakness, sitting around drinking gin with lipstick smeared all over my face and talking smack about the ex on the internet.

I do try to avoid it, but it happens every now and then. I don't actually expect a reprint or anything, as I realize this is silly. It was just kind of a "but..if you just did this one little thing we could be happy like we used to!" moment.
 

Just to make it clear, I'm not completely making fun. I've definitely had, and still have, my moments of anger at WotC. But...

...The thing is, WotC and I had a really nasty, neighbors-calling-the-cops kind of breakup a while back after years of happiness. Occasionally I behave like the bitter ex-girlfriend in a moment of weakness, sitting around drinking gin with lipstick smeared all over my face and talking smack about the ex on the internet...


WotC! Why...!
31.jpg


I couldn't resist...

;)
 
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FWIW, generations of teachers have made complaints along these lines, with only the names of the pop-culture items changing.

And this is why I still think "The Kids Are Alright."

Digital communication .... facebook .... etc......

One thing I've noticed about ENWorld is that its the most verbose of all the messageboards or websites I frequent. (includes Comic Book Resources, Huffiington Post, Circus Maximus, RealClearPolitics .... etc....aside from my point). Possibly due to this verbosity (or whatever you want to call it), I really think this board is hard on the perceived 'kids of today.' I don't care if they play World of Warcraft or Everquest before it! Kids are kids, and by kids I mean teenage boys. They all seem stupid and scatterbrained to adults. They don't always communicate in the open or where its obvious to adults.

Also, there will still be kids who want to read. Someone dissed Harry Potter novels -- and I actually dislike the books and the movies -- but its still the obvious example that kids read big books still.

PREDICTION: Just wait til the HOBBIT (two parts) finally comes out. We'll see a big spike in kids reading that book again, and follow on to that the Lord of the Rings. Its only been 7-8 years since RotK came out and the trilogy ended (though it feels like a lifetime ago).

I am rambling big time, but to quote Mark Twain: “History doesn't repeat itself - at best it sometimes rhymes”

Our hobby is the latter. Lets accept it and enjoy the cacophony.
 

Utterly irrelevant to the subject we were discussing.
It was a refutation of your new "I'll let you in on a little secret" schtick. Maybe you should change that to "I'll let you in on a completely subjective and possibly entirely fallacious opinion of mine" unless you really want to come across like that.

And IMO it refuted your "secret" about "they're doing all that can possibly be done and they're passionate about it so what do you lot know" rather neatly, thank you very much.
 
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Besides which, your entire post refers to the same tired old thing I've already refueted - this idea that 4e's <nouns> are somehow less then other editions <nouns> because they started with a mechanical basis first.
Not refuted at all. The results speak for themselves. I could detect metagame thinking in the monster selection of 3e and the no-archetype prestige classes that became common, and as of 4E it's gone berserk and infected not only the core implied setting but, as Celtavian points out, the scope of creativity possible in the rules straitjacket that they've tailored for themselves.

And stop playing the man and not the ball with your helpful little suggestions on post length please. I think maybe you're being so dismissive because your argument is very much on the ropes, maybe?
 
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And yet I, who started in 2e, enjoy 4e.

I gurantee I'm not alone in this.

Perhaps - and I'm stretching out on a limb here - you don't speak for everyone who started playing before 4e?

WotC isn't in any way in a bind. Here's another magical secret that I will deign to share with the rest of you: "old" gamers and "new" gamers are not different species. Many of them even like the same kind of things! Shocking, yes, but true. There is no magical or neurological divide there.

This is what I get for assuming that others have studied marketing too. When you're talking marketing you're always talking tendencies and most and some because obviously not every member of every group does the same thing; obviously from 3E to 4E not everyone jumped ship. Just as obviously a lot of people have. I've heard numbers like 50% thrown around. I have no way of telling if that's right but it's a lot of people. If you are losing a large percentage of your customer base then a marketer will say the customer base is not happy even if some customers are fine.

The old guys and the new guys are coming into the hobby from very different places too. My introduction to fantasy was Norton and Zelazny and Moorcock. For a lot of people coming in their introduction was World of Warcraft and Twilight. It makes a big difference in what they like and what they expect to see in a game. As a quick example a buddy just started 3E after many years of WoW (not my game though) and he said that 3E is great except it needs an aggro mechanic. I was a bit boggled - I never would have thought of that or thought it was even remotely a good idea.

So while taking a middle route can make some people from both groups happy, I think it's inferior in terms of market potential to focusing on one group or the other.
 

As a quick example a buddy just started 3E after many years of WoW (not my game though) and he said that 3E is great except it needs an aggro mechanic. I was a bit boggled - I never would have thought of that or thought it was even remotely a good idea.

As an aside, playing WOW taught me the same thing (I should say it showed me the answer). I mostly GMed 3.x and I hated rogues, especially against a single powerful monster. A well built rogue does big damage in melee but has subpar AC and crappy hit points. If I played it true, the rogue gets one good round of damage in before the Dragon/Giant/Demon turns away from the fighter and shreds the rogue. Or I had to "look the other way" for a couple of rounds and let the rogue have his fun.

3rd edition made rogues massive damage dealers in melee with limit ways to defend themselves (ie, you had to hope you killed it in a round or two). Is the Aggro mechanic the right way? I do not know, but I do know the rogue had that issue in 3rd edition. So I understand your WOW buddy's perspective.
 

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