The Role of the Wizard, or "How Come Billy Gets to Create a Demiplane?"

[billd91]

It depends on the edition really. Third edition implemented the (IMO) horrible design of requiring a full attack by a fighter to be a full round action. So the fighter couldnt move and get multiple attacks without something like the pounce ability. Those later attacks have a low chance of hitting anyways... compare it to scorching rays, which lets the wizard lob multiple as well.

Fighters not being able to move very far while taking their multiple attacks? Been there since 1e.

 

[Ariosto]

Let's assume that the wizard goes the cheaper (non scroll) route and copies from other wizards. (Note, again, this is the cheapest route--scrolls are more and research is MUCH more).

Copying from another wiz's spellbook has a fee of "spell's level x 50 gold."

The difference from the old game is like night and day.

Superior players will certainly co-operate ... no special sanctions need be taken to prevent such exchanges ... Non-player character hirelings or henchmen will ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to cooperate freely with player characters ... As a general rule, they will require value plus a bonus when dealing with their liege. If they will deal with other PCs (or NPCs) at all, they will require double value plus a considerable bonus.

As well,

Naturally, the personality of the henchman or hireling would modify the bargain to some extent. A very avaricious or greedy NPC would ask for more magic items and/or gold too! As a good DM, you will have developed the character of each henchman and hireling to the extent that such determinations will be relatively easy.

 

[renau1g]

How about this seeming entitlement to a 20+-level character? I'm not seeing it in 3e, although according to 4e you should be able to keep up with the leader board without even playing.

What are you talking about with 4e? I actually can't figure out the point you're making here?

 

[Sorrowdusk]

Also, if its only a good DM that lets a game work, or players limiting themselves, then its a systemic issue. A good driver could theoretically race in a car with a the steering wheel on the ceiling, but its not necessarily good design.

And why shouldnt a DM be key to making the game "work"?

As for players limiting themselves, couldnt it be a give and take kinda thing? I mean, just because my Cleric can cast Find Traps doesnt mean I'm not going to let the rogue do his thing-cause thats his thing. Now, when the Rogue2/Swordsage9/Shadowlord3 of the party tries to find traps with a +13 mod on his search.

My Eldritch Disciple? I have a +13 modifier on Search with absolutely no ranks due to feats, high int, and a Warlock Invocation. With Find Traps Spell I can raise it to +20. If I had his 10 ranks, I could have a total +30 mod, but that'd be a buttload of cross class ranks.

So when we get hit by that Wail of Banshee trap, I could be like "You want me to help?", but I dont automatically assume that role cause thats his schtick/deal/thing that he does. If it had a range other than personal, you know, I would just buff HIM. Of course, I could invest some gold in buying him a Wand of it too and some goggles of Insight-non magical characters do rely on gear/tools/equipment.

How do you not die then? In 3rd edition the damage output of monsters is obscene. And while everyone can poke each other with cheap, disposable 750gp heal sticks afterwards, you will need to expend solid resources to keep people alive. If the fighters arent being pressed for in combat healing, I would argue the battles are too easy. in earlier editions, potions didnt rain from the sky, so again, your fighter will last as long as your cleric. The casters again limit the adventuring day in some form or another.

Firstly let me say that your DM is nice if you have never had to worry about the enemy attacking you in the night disturbing your rest, nor being pressed to move on by some urgent matter even though ideally you'd wish to stop and begin the morrow. It may not happen every bloody day, but its more than realistic to happen.
Secondly, let me say that not all encounters need to be run at the full CR=Party level, nor do there need to be 4 per day.
The Alexandrian - Misc Creations

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

The factotum is your jack of trades. Certainly she knows her way around locks and traps, but she's more then that. Caught and arrested and put naked in a cell?

Dammit, you just had to make your hypothetical Factotum a "she", didn't ya? I couldn't read any further past the sentence quoted above, because I was temporarily stunned and dazed by the image of a naked woman in a cell, her body somewhat dirty and oiled from the grim all around her . . .

(shakes head)

 

[Odhanan]

Also, if its only a good DM that lets a game work, or players limiting themselves, then its a systemic issue. A good driver could theoretically race in a car with a the steering wheel on the ceiling, but its not necessarily good design.

You know, no matter how "well designed" (whatever that means) a car, a bad driver will remain a bad driver, and drive it sooner or later into a ditch, a wall, off a cliff or whatnot. No matter what kind of car you choose, being a decent driver is a requirement to handling it properly. It's not like the car drives itself... yet. So you might as well pick the car that fits your tastes best, and enjoy the hell out of it, instead of bitching about the cars you did not pick in the first place.

 

[Ariosto]

What are you talking about with 4e?

I am talking about this:

The game works better in a lot of ways if you just assume that characters all gain experience and advance levels at the same rate, even if their players miss a session.

That is NOT true of the game that Arneson and Gygax designed, of which 3e is a hack.

 

[DandD]

Firstly let me say that your DM is nice if you have never had to worry about the enemy attacking you in the night disturbing your rest, nor being pressed to move on by some urgent matter even though ideally you'd wish to stop and begin the morrow. It may not happen every bloody day, but its more than realistic to happen.
Secondly, let me say that not all encounters need to be run at the full CR=Party level, nor do there need to be 4 per day.
The Alexandrian - Misc Creations

The more likely monsters come to disturb the cleric praying for his healing spells, the more important the wizard becomes with his rope trick or magnificent mansion, which also helps the fighter in healing and not dying. Especially if the roaming monsters are capable of passing through walls, becoming ethereal, turn themselves invisible, or have other magick powers to enchant and beguile anybody who is stuck on guard duty...

After all, that's what adventurers do too to maximize the chance for a successful ambush, when they encounter an orc standing guard for his fellow sleeping orclings.

That's because players might have learned or might think that whatever smart trick they come up with, the gm will do it too, and to prevent a party-wipe while they must rest for the magic-user and the cleric to regain the spells needed to succeed, they come up with tiresome tactics that make ambushing upon them really tedious on the gm, like disappearing in a magical dimension, summoning super-watchdogs that can detect all but the most powerful magick-using monsters that would have party-wiped them anyway, building elaborate magical rune traps and sigils that cause pain, sigils that spew forth deadly snakes and whatnot...

That's why D&D should never degenerate into a gm vs players-situation.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

This "account" is so factually untrue and biased it is kind of mind-boggling to read, honestly.

The fundamental difference between the fighter and the magic user is that one class has some abilities that are strictly scripted by the rules to limit their scope precisely, aka Spells, whereas the fighter has access to abilities that are not strictly scripted by the rules, aka acquiring retinues, retainers, servants, favors, titles, influence, managing mercenary forces thereof, and most important of all, the actual tactics employed in the game with all the resources you gather thereof, including of course your own character, equipment and abilities.

And wizards cant have friends becaaaaaause?

Any of those things that the fighter can do that arent covered by the rules, the wizard can ALSO do, and still have spells.

 

[renau1g]

I am talking about this:

That is NOT true of the game that Arneson and Gygax designed, of which 3e is a hack.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll agree with the 4e's suggestion.

Say you're new to a longer term group and they're level 8-10 or so in 2e (can't comment on 1e, only played from 2e forward). You start at level 1. Is that fun? Basically, you're there but I fail to see this being fun as you either die in 1 hit, can't hit the enemy, or fire off your 1 magic missile of the day and then go back to using your sling...

I guess I have a different definition of fun than you do.