The Role of the Wizard, or "How Come Billy Gets to Create a Demiplane?"

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I've heard "collaborative storytelling" used just about all my RPing life, but I'll say its an interesting point.
It's actually Gary Gygax that made me realize this while talking about this on two different occasions, where he told me something to the effect of "the story's the stuff you talk about after the game's done." I can't find the quotes back for the life of me, but there it is. Take that as you will.
 

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Look at mythological heroes such as Heracles or Thor. If Heracles needed to clean out a massive stable in a day, he just used his ludicrous strength to redirect a river. If Thor had business with the Midgard Serpent, he just whipped out his fishing pole. If Thor wanted to lower sea levels, he just started drinking (though this one wasn't intentional on his part). One of the best examples of Deus Ex Machina through brute superhuman strength comes from the Ramayana, where Hanuman jumps from Sri Lanka to the Himaleyas to find a mountain where healing herbs grow, then uproots the entire mountain and carries it back to Sri Lanka in a single leap...There is a strange idea that even Epic level Fighters who can go toe-to-toe with Balors and Elder Dragons should fundamentally resemble mundane humans.

Well, it is worth noting that Heracles, Thor, and Hanuman are all gods.

I'm not at all opposed to the idea of high level fighters doing superhuman things, but don't think you need to draw the lines so far out as Thor and Hanuman. At 20th level, not that my campaign ever goes there, your average (average?) fighter under my rules would probably be able to out run a horse, leap over a small building, climb a wall of ice, leap from a 200' precipice and survive the fall, and smash a stone (or a wall of force) with his bare hands. He can inspire a small army to fight with a fearless passion. His hands may well be lethal magic weapons. He can quite possibly win a bare knuckle brawl with a 3 ton giant, and drink an ogre under the table and that isn't even to begin to discuss the powers of the heirlooms and artifacts in his possession. He's no longer merely mundane; he's a superhero. That's the expectation.

None of that would give him narrative power necessarily. I'm inclined to see 'narrative power' as something of a red herring here.

I have never known in any of the games in any edition I've played a man-at-arms of any sort to be a weak class. I recognize that a very large part of that is the way I run games, but by far the most dominating character I ever encountered at any table was a fighter in a game I wasn't running. I have never seen the actual in game stats (pre-publication) for any of Gygax's wizard characters, but I have seen them for.. a fighter. As a person who has played 1e, the fighter didn't strike me as a particularly weak and scoffable character lacking 'narrative authority' or whatever you want to call it.

As for the Wizard, you don't have a lot of narrative control when you are dead. Any wizard that thinks he can get by in the greatest of dangers without a stalwarth company is soon going to rue it. The situation I strive for is this; the guy playing the wizard at the table knows he's dead meat without the brave assistance the fighter and the guy playing the fighter knows that he won't get very far at all without the brave assistance of the wizard.

Do I think that the 3e rules - or indeed the rules for any edition - have completely and fully realized this goal? No, I don't. And I fully agree that 3rd edition had this problem in spades and I don't doubt that many a new DM running his game by the RAW threw his hands up in frustration, or that many a player in such game rued the day he choose to play a lowly fighter. Back in 2nd edition, you might have said much the same thing about playing a thief. But I find that the situation is not as dire as all that.
 

Thanks for the clarification. I'll agree with the 4e's suggestion.

Say you're new to a longer term group and they're level 8-10 or so in 2e (can't comment on 1e, only played from 2e forward). You start at level 1. Is that fun? Basically, you're there but I fail to see this being fun as you either die in 1 hit, can't hit the enemy, or fire off your 1 magic missile of the day and then go back to using your sling...

I guess I have a different definition of fun than you do.

Back when I first moved to town I got a call about an AD&D game to join. I showed up with my first-level fighter and found out the core of the group was 7th level and they wanted me to sit on the roof outside the stronghold with a bow and take pot shots at anything that ran from them.

Shortest

group

ever

3E gave the ability to fighters of equal levels to almost feel that way all the time after a certain point.
 

Professor Cirno.

I've read through this thread and a bit from the one that seemingly made you want to make it(the one about dnd flaming out around page ... 17ish I think). I think you're right. The RAW gives spellcasters all sorts of opportunities for narrative control, albeit limited by daily uses compared to like abilities of other classes(using <i>invisibility</i> to mimic the hide skill, for instance).

I just have to ask though: Why is this a problem? Or is it not a problem and something you've noticed and are just pointing out?
 

Professor Cirno.

I've read through this thread and a bit from the one that seemingly made you want to make it(the one about dnd flaming out around page ... 17ish I think). I think you're right. The RAW gives spellcasters all sorts of opportunities for narrative control, albeit limited by daily uses compared to like abilities of other classes(using <i>invisibility</i> to mimic the hide skill, for instance).

I just have to ask though: Why is this a problem? Or is it not a problem and something you've noticed and are just pointing out?

Because I feel D&D could or should go in one of three ways - a magic high game, a magic low game, or a mid-magic style game. Right now D&D tries to be all three, and it doesn't work out well for either of the first two (though the mid-magic game gets by fairly well).

Wizards have an issue in being challenged. I find it boring as a player to just steamroll everything with "I cast a spell" and I find it excrutiating and frustrating as a DM to have to amp up a bizarre arms race with the players unless they go by a "gentleman's agreement."

Fighters also have an issue in being challenged-the opposite one. The DM has to babysit and go out of his way to either ignore the rules entirely or to make increasingly strange situations that only the fighter can solve.


RE: Leadership

I dunno about you guys, but when faced with Joe the Fighter and Billy the Wizard on who I want to follow, I'm going to follow the guy who better ensures we win. Do I want a hardened mercenary captain or a guy who can incinerate arrows before they hit us, increase our speed twofold, and make us towering juggernauts in front of the enemy?

It becomes even more nonsensical of an argument when you go into other casters. I'm pretty sure everyone will follow Suzy the priestess of Lathander, who can call down miracles and heal their wounds and raise the dead, and who has a direct connection to their god.
 

Look at Dungeons & Beavers, or Champions, or Exalted, or HeroQuest, or...

It's a wild idea, but how about folks go and play whichever games they actually like instead of insisting that someone else's game has to get stuffed into some mold?

You are never going all to agree on the perfect fantasy game! Stop trying to homogenize the hobby! It's a good thing that we have different games from which to choose!

I don't see how "play something that isn't D&D" is a legitimate response to my solution for what several people in this thread consider to be a problem with D&D. Are you saying that D&D fighters absolutely shouldn't resemble mythological heroes, and it wouldn't be D&D if they were?

The reason I suggest it is that for the most part I like playing D&D. I just think it could be better.
 

You are never going all to agree on the perfect fantasy game! Stop trying to homogenize the hobby! It's a good thing that we have different games from which to choose!

Arguing in favor of new and different versions of D&D isn't "trying to homogenize the hobby" any more than asking for no more new and different versions of D&D is. It's adding more choices: a good thing, as you say.
 

On a side note-has anyone notice that Magicians often end up being Big Bad Evil Guys? Othertimes he becomes the Court Wizard in service to a greedy, evil king and takes up the role of treacherous advisor. He may not directly oppose the Lord, but he works from behind the throne and puts himself at less personal risk/backlash than if he actually tried to sit on the seat himself-say if the king got overthrown. In that case, he just becomes Court Wizard to the new guy. Either way, he gets gold that pays for his eternal study.

Evil Sorcerer - Television Tropes & Idioms

I'm curious as to how often you see them as heroes in fiction.
 

On a side note-has anyone notice that Magicians often end up being Big Bad Evil Guys? Othertimes he becomes the Court Wizard in service to a greedy, evil king and takes up the role of treacherous advisor. He may not directly oppose the Lord, but he works from behind the throne and puts himself at less personal risk/backlash than if he actually tried to sit on the seat himself-say if the king got overthrown. In that case, he just becomes Court Wizard to the new guy. Either way, he gets gold that pays for his eternal study.

Evil Sorcerer - Television Tropes & Idioms

I'm curious as to how often you see them as heroes in fiction.
Plenty of them in japanese cartoons and comics (where most evil guys are also spellcasters or use magic in some way). Oh, and Twilight Sparkle from "My little Pony: Friendship is Magic" (awesome show).

That's because magicians have better narrative abilities, with which the writers can go wild and justify all kinds of mumbo-jumbo.
 

On a side note-has anyone notice that Magicians often end up being Big Bad Evil Guys? Othertimes he becomes the Court Wizard in service to a greedy, evil king and takes up the role of treacherous advisor. He may not directly oppose the Lord, but he works from behind the throne and puts himself at less personal risk/backlash than if he actually tried to sit on the seat himself-say if the king got overthrown. In that case, he just becomes Court Wizard to the new guy. Either way, he gets gold that pays for his eternal study.

Evil Sorcerer - Television Tropes & Idioms

I'm curious as to how often you see them as heroes in fiction.

Part of the reason you see Wizards more often as main villains is due to the added narrative power of magic. An evil wizard simply has more resources at his disposal than an evil warrior. An evil warrior can inspire an army to follow him. An evil sorcerer can raise the dead to serve him, summon demons, curse the heroes, rise from the dead as a lich, revive a dark god, etc. If an evil warrior wants to do those things, he needs to hire an evil wizard (who often betrays the warrior to become the true BBEG).

It is the natural progression of any system or setting where wizards have all of the Deus Ex Machina abilities and warriors don't.
 

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