January and Beyond!

[AntlerDruid]

I just want to know what they specifically have in the Shadow book for Warlocks

 

[Aegeri]

And I suppose you also know this well enough already, but I reckon one of the unfortunate denouements of designing is criticism, given with or without any sort of empathy.

This would be assuming I hold him accountable for it. Reading his posts, he's made it clear the thing I dislike the most about it - the racial penalty to healing surges - wasn't even his doing (it started like that). I still cannot fathom why it has that penalty and what it is supposed to gain from it. 4th Edition made a strong statement on release that it had done away with certain sacred cows for the better: Like racial penalties. This is one part of "older" design I definitely do not want to come back into 4E. I must concede, I wouldn't outright dislike the race 1/2 as much if it wasn't for the healing surge penalty. It's just pointless and penalizes the classes it should actually be good at the most (they have the lowest amount of surges as well). Personally if any of my players ever did want to play the race, I would eject that penalty from the race so fast even superman would be impressed.

 

[Mengu]

4th Edition made a strong statement on release that it had done away with certain sacred cows for the better: Like racial penalties. This is one part of "older" design I definitely do not want to come back into 4E.

+1.

Sadly small, speed 5 (4 if you're not careful) gnomes have been suffering from that sacred cow since PHB2. I thought they would learn their mistake there, but doesn't seem like it.

I half expect someone to go out and make a sickly Shade Wizard with 8 Con so the character starts out with 18 HP, and 4 surges. But no worries, he is trained in stealth, and can spend his standard actions lurking in the shadows during a fight.

 

[Destil]

The only problem with the shade is they should get an extra trained skill if their class automatically gets stealth (and, ideally, if they would get it via a multi-class feat). As is they're worse rogues in a way, because they're down a skill, nevermind the surge.

Having sold some small part of yourself to shadow is nothing new for this power source (just look at the assassin's wizard hit dice), I like the -1 surge and hope that there's some nice racial feats to make up for it.

 

[DragoonLance]

So is the necromancer gone? Or is is a variant of the warlock? Strange that there is no mention of them so far, when up to this point they had been touted as one of the big new things in this book. Is nobody talking about them yet or did they not make the cut?

 

[Mengu]

So is the necromancer gone? Or is is a variant of the warlock? Strange that there is no mention of them so far, when up to this point they had been touted as one of the big new things in this book. Is nobody talking about them yet or did they not make the cut?

It's a mage school. They already did a blurb on them in December and Beyond.

 

[I'm A Banana]

For the record, I'm pretty fond of the idea that races get extra Utilities after 1st level. That + a Theme = YAY. Though it puts a design hole in racial "attacks" like the Dragonborn's Breath Weapon.

As for the rest of it...eh. Can't see myself being a Shade, really, when there's Gnomes and Drow and Halflings and Shadar-Kai and Tieflings and, heck, Eladrin, who all can fill that role comfortably. Even though about half that list is on my "4e doesn't do it right" list for one reason or another. That -1 Surge isn't a horrible thing (my groups rarely get down that low), but it's a penalty for picking a race...there's going to have to be some dang compelling powers/abilities/etc. inherent in the thing for it to be worth that price of admission.

Playing a "vampire tiefling" like the Vryloka might be interesting, too.

I'm also just fond of the "Heroes of Shadow" format. Races + Classes + Feats, all with a tight theme rather than the PHSplat's often-slapdash approach, really makes me feel like the concept is being supported there, rather than presented there, to be fleshed out later, by Dragon articles, maybe.

 

[FireLance]

4th Edition made a strong statement on release that it had done away with certain sacred cows for the better: Like racial penalties. This is one part of "older" design I definitely do not want to come back into 4E.

Personally, I think that's an overreaction. IMO, there is nothing inherently bad about racial penalties. You just have to ensure that:

1. The racial package as a whole is still relatively balanced.

2. The racial penalty does not effectively shoehorn characters of that race into a small number of classes or roles by crippling their effectiveness at the rest.

In this specific instance, and again, in my view, the reduction in healing surges is a relatively small penalty.

Of course, you can get a character with a low number of healing surges per day by picking a class with a low number of healing surges to begin with and then assigning your lowest ability score to Constitution, but apart from the desire to prove a point, why would you do this?

The player of such a character can shore up this weakness by simply assigning a higher ability score to Constitution or by taking a feat to increase the character's number of healing surges.

Since (again, IMO) D&D is best played as a team game, the rest of the players can also help out by running characters that can provide surgeless healing (e.g. clerics), can "donate" healing surges (e.g. paladins) or who can redistribute healing surges among the members of the party (e.g. artificers).

In addition, the player can adapt his playstyle to minimize the character's exposure to hit point damage.

In short, with a bit of intelligence and teamwork from the players as a whole, I really don't see this specific racial penalty being a crippling problem.

 

[Klaus]

Ah, that makes sense, NDA and all. Looking forward to seeing your contributions! And curious but did you have any influence on the look of the Shade or Vryloka, with your art background and all? I often find when I'm designing for my game I'm sketching and feeling out the look of them to later describe.

And I suppose you also know this well enough already, but I reckon one of the unfortunate denouements of designing is criticism, given with or without any sort of empathy. And come to think, I suppose another unfortunate denouement of working for WotC is there's always a few people out there to boo boo it. Persevere!

I made sure to include a clear description of both races in their entries, and even did a concept sketch for the vrylokas, because I had a clear image of them in my mind (I wanted them to look distinctly different from shadar-kai, shades, etc).

I personally don't see -1 surge as that big a deal (no more so than, say, Small), specially for a race that is supposed to be in a more controller-ish position (thematically). I've seen wizards and archer rangers that went entire sessions without reaching half their surges.

As they are, shades make great illusion and enchantment mages, Cha-based warlocks, cunning bards or wild or storm sorcerers.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I personally don't see -1 surge as that big a deal (no more so than, say, Small), specially for a race that is supposed to be in a more controller-ish position (thematically). I've seen wizards and archer rangers that went entire sessions without reaching half their surges.

It's not that big of a deal, but when choosing a race, it effectively makes it a less appealing choice, comparatively. It would have to come with some powerful abilities to make it appealing again, and it doesn't look like the rest of the Shade's package (from the preview, at least) is any better than the Eladrin's or the Gnome's or the Halfling's. So the person left choosing the Shade as their race is choosing it for purely thematic reasons (which is good!), but then is getting hit with a penalty for doing something thematic vs. something more mechanically sound (penalties for roleplaying? Baaad!).

I don't think it's a big deal, but if, in 6 months or so, WotC wonders why Shades don't have "traction," that one racial feature could be it. A penalty for choosing a race just doesn't endear that race to anyone.

Comparing it to Small is pretty fair, because it's only harmful to an archetype (They both hit Defenders, and Small hits Large Weapon Users and -1 Surge hits any melee build), but I think Small has too much genre-push to make it something that the game should try and do without. The same isn't necessarily true of -1 Surge.

Anyway, it's a datapoint. Not a huge deal if one more race doesn't get used that often. Join the Gnoll pile!