Charm Monster/Person Problem

[marciovicente]

Hello.

I had a problem in my latest session when one of the PCs casted a 3.5 ed. Charm Monster on an NPC.

The NPC was a Kobold Rogue who was serving as a guide in the dungeon. This Kobold thinks they are guilty in a crime and is planning a secret revenge. The PCs discover his plans and tries to convince him that they are not guilty. They fail.

So, the wizard casts Charm Monster on him. Okay.
A dialogue starts.

The Wizard will try to convince him trough the Charm Monster spell that they are not guilty.

Question: Assuming that the kobold will believe in his words, he will understand and believe that everything was a big misunderstanding. And therefore will give up on the revenge plan... but after the spell is dismissed, will his conclusion remain?

I mean, he knows that the spell was casted on him. He knows that they used the spell to convince him, because he remember everything waht happened while the spell was on, right? He might think that he was induced to believe in everything that was said to him.

Now what?

 

[Nagol]

Once the spell effect ends, the creature's attitude reverts to its original disposition.

As a DM I allow adjustments to the original disposition based upon the treatment of the victim while under the spell. In other words, if the original attitude was neutral and the behaviour was friendly enough in both directions, it may shift to friendly as it would naturally.

The creature doesn't automatically know it was under a spell since it only gains the knowledge that a spell effect was resisted on a successful saving throw. In this case, once the kobold has the opportunity for introspection and/or outside prompting, it should realise it's feelings went through tremendous alteration and should suspect magic since the it's feeling towards the Wizard were altered.

How it will react will depend on its personality. Is it more likely to see that the Charm spell was a non-violent method of dealing with the murderous plot and the alternative was its death or think that its will was subverted by the same rat-dinks that did the previous crime and they deserve nothing better than thje worst death it is capable of?

 

[marciovicente]

The creature doesn't automatically know it was under a spell since it only gains the knowledge that a spell effect was resisted on a successful saving throw.

Casting the spell involves gesture and verbal components, right?
The target doesn`t actually needs to know which spell was casted, but he knows that a spell was casted on him.

My point is: After the spell is dismissed, he will remember that he fell in a spell, won't he? And now he have another point of view of the situation... he is changed, but he still remembers what was said to him while the spell was on.

He knows everything. Again, he still might think he was induced magically to agree with everything that was said to him.

 

[Celebrim]

I mean, he knows that the spell was casted on him. He knows that they used the spell to convince him, because he remember everything waht happened while the spell was on, right? He might think that he was induced to believe in everything that was said to him.

He thinks this because he was induced to believe it. He's being perfectly rational. After the charm spell wears off, he will remember that he believed them guilty of a crime and now he will remember that the party mind raped him with black magic in an attempt to cover up their evil deeds.

The penalty for charming a person in my campaign world if you are caught is to be burned alive, so no, I don't consider the above description be an exagerration. A society can't afford treat 'charm person' as a wacky whim, as a basicly harmless and non-violent act, most especially a society that is essentially autocratic in nature (to say as little as possible about the obvious use of charm person to facillitate actual rape).

Now what?

How would you feel if someone took your powers of reasoning and will from you?

The charm person spell is quite powerful and solves many problems all by itself, but there are times when having a lot ranks in Diplomacy and/or Bluff is far better.

 

[Nagol]

Casting the spell involves gesture and verbal components, right?
The target doesn`t actually needs to know which spell was casted, but he knows that a spell was casted on him.

My point is: After the spell is dismissed, he will remember that he fell in a spell, won't he? And now he have another point of view of the situation... he is changed, but he still remembers what was said to him while the spell was on.

He knows everything. Again, he still might think he was induced magically to agree with everything that was said to him.

He'll remember a spell was cast, but he won't know he was the target and he'll only know the spell as a Charm if he has the skill to tell.

He will remember a massive shift in attitude for no good reason and being pushed to reach new decisions by the wizard.

He'll remeber everything that happened and his attitude readjusts.

 

[CuRoi]

Charm Monster might have been overkill for the kobold : )

What is the Kobold's intelligence? Did the party really just say "Ok, sit still while we cast this spell on you" or "oh ignore that guy wagglling his fingers and mumbling over there...." or did they use some sort of discretion? If they just pointed the mage at him while he watched, I'd say a reasonably intelligent humanoid would remember that when the spell wore off and be able to put two and two together.

I know it varies per campaign, but spellcasting IMC can be fairly subtle. If they did it right and the target has no means of noticing a spell was cast, things might be a little different, but have the same end result.

All he might really know is that he really trusted that wizard for a bit. He seemed like a reasonable guy and wasn't waving a sharp pointy object in his face like that walking tin-can. That wizard sounded pretty convincing about his lack of involvement and it's too bad he's fallen in with such terrible companions. (Though the succesful opposed Charisma might have him begrudgingly accept the Wizard's opinion re. the rest of the party.)

But you know...it's been a day or so...and now that Mr. Scaly thinks of it, that Wizard just can't be right. The party HAS to be guilty of that crime, there is no other explanation. Instead of agreeing with the Wizard and sparing him the revenge (cause you know, even if the Wizard seemed nice, he still was thinking of getting even with his friends) he is going to have to include that Wizard again.

 

[jefgorbach]

let me ask you this... how many people did you see use/move their hands while speaking yesterday? the day before? last week?

While the charmed victim might later feel/notice something is amiss, his only real recognition of the event would be his sudden decision the guilty party was innocent all along; something he might not even consider if they follow the spell with a successful Diplomacy/Bluff attempt to reinforce their attempt to convince him to reexamine the purported evidence against them in a more friendly viewpoint.

 

[marciovicente]

Charm Monster might have been overkill for the kobold : )

What is the Kobold's intelligence? Did the party really just say "Ok, sit still while we cast this spell on you" or "oh ignore that guy wagglling his fingers and mumbling over there...." or did they use some sort of discretion? If they just pointed the mage at him while he watched, I'd say a reasonably intelligent humanoid would remember that when the spell wore off and be able to put two and two together.

I know it varies per campaign, but spellcasting IMC can be fairly subtle. If they did it right and the target has no means of noticing a spell was cast, things might be a little different, but have the same end result.

All he might really know is that he really trusted that wizard for a bit. He seemed like a reasonable guy and wasn't waving a sharp pointy object in his face like that walking tin-can. That wizard sounded pretty convincing about his lack of involvement and it's too bad he's fallen in with such terrible companions. (Though the succesful opposed Charisma might have him begrudgingly accept the Wizard's opinion re. the rest of the party.)

But you know...it's been a day or so...and now that Mr. Scaly thinks of it, that Wizard just can't be right. The party HAS to be guilty of that crime, there is no other explanation. Instead of agreeing with the Wizard and sparing him the revenge (cause you know, even if the Wizard seemed nice, he still was thinking of getting even with his friends) he is going to have to include that Wizard again.

The kobold have 16 INT, he is lvl 10 rogue. He's pretty smart.
He asked for a favor in exchange for guiding them into the dungeon.

When they reached the part where they would have to fulfill the favor, they doubted about his intentions and betrayed his trust.

He became pissed off, because this favor was the last drop of confidence that he was giving to them, and it wasn't a evil thing at all.

They started to fight. At the second round, the wizard casted Hold Person on him. Then, the Charm Monster... we had to stop the session because we started to discuss what happens next.

And here i am.

 

[marciovicente]

let me ask you this... how many people did you see use/move their hands while speaking yesterday? the day before? last week?

While the charmed victim might later feel/notice something is amiss, his only real recognition of the event would be his sudden decision the guilty party was innocent all along; something he might not even consider if they follow the spell with a successful Diplomacy/Bluff attempt to reinforce their attempt to convince him to reexamine the purported evidence against them in a more friendly viewpoint.

So you are saying that while the spell is active, the victim has a black out?
He is not aware of what is going on around him? And will not remember whatever happens or, let's say, are been told to him?

 

[CuRoi]

They started to fight. At the second round, the wizard casted Hold Person on him. Then, the Charm Monster... we had to stop the session because we started to discuss what happens next.

And here i am.

Given those circumstances, yes once the spell wears off the kobold will remember the entire event IMO. So yes, he will be a bit upset, most likely know he was magically coerced for however many hours into believing he had not been swindled, and he will most likely react accordingly.

True, the spell doesn't specify what happens after the duration expires. However, since the target's attitude toward the player hinges on the spell itself, I'd agree with the other opinions already expressed. And yes, the spell also doesn't specifically say whether the target remebers what happened, but I don't think it says anywhere that you can't recall events either (and I don't think a 1st level spell should be that powerful anyway).

If your players think this is unfair, provide an example with their character as the target. Is it ok for the big bad guy to cast Charm on the Wizard, tell him they are the best of friends, and then expect the Wizard to remain friendly toward him well after the spell expires? The good 'ol "Do you REALLY want the spell to work this way?" thing works without fail...