Did WotC underestimate the Paizo effect on 4E?

[Dark Mistress]

I want to just make one comment on the whole medusa issue. To me Perseus went to face her with his party, you know those other guys. Yet he was the only one to live. To me that means she was nearly a TPK for perseus who was given magic items by the gods, as he was the only one to live. Plus I never got the feeling he killed her with ease, but that it was a hard fight and partially he used a trick the reflection of his shield and got lucky to kill her.

Of course that's just my opinion on the subject.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Or if one wanted to look at it in a different light... Perseus was the only one who did make his Saving Throw... and on top of that his attack was a critical with maximum damage... ...nothing in the movie or story contradicts this interpretation.

His men on the other hand (again using Clash of the Titans since it's the most modern incarnation of medusa) do not get slowly turned to stone and none of them that succumb fight it off later. So what exactly is the 4e version even based on?

Or if you want to look at it in the light that the story is actually presented in, there is no saving throw, you either have a trick and use a magic item or you die on the spot!

4e version is based on the same thing the 3e version is based on the same thing the 2e etc etc etc is: setting up an abstract game function to cover a narrative event.

 

[Imaro]

And SoDs utterly fail at assisting or providing for this.

For you maybe, but for many others and their groups it assists and provides for this better than 3 strikes and you're out does... tastes are subjective, even when continuously stated as facts.

 

[Imaro]

Or if you want to look at it in the light that the story is actually presented in, there is no saving throw, you either have a trick and use a magic item or you die on the spot!

4e version is based on the same thing the 3e version is based on the same thing the 2e etc etc etc is: setting up an abstract game function to cover a narrative event.

Uhm, saving throws are not an actual action... at least in 3e so how in a narrative would you kow if the protagonist did or didn't make one except in whether he did or didn't succumb to the result?

However, even without the saving throw... 3.x can cover the medusa fight in various ways, as I demonstrated in a previous post, including averting one's eyes, fighting blind... even fighting through looking in a reflective object. The point though is that 3.x's SoD represents how her powers as described in myths work much better than 4e's SS...oh yeah, Save again...D. No story or movie in anyway has the victims of her gaze slowing down, but still fighting...moving and everything else, or as I said before...recovering from looking at her.

 

[Wicht]

And SoDs utterly fail at assisting or providing for this.

Of course, just one person denying that your assertion is false in their game utterly undoes your argument, seeing as how you insist on dealing in absolutes.

I can say with all honesty that I've seen the tension such die rolls create in my games, complete with sighs of relief when they succeed (and screams of agony when they fail). Therefore, since the games I have had experience with provide evidence of the fact that the mechanic works as intended, I can safely say that your absolute statement of fact, is, on the face of it, false.

To repeat an earlier arguement: If one concedes that a 1 in 40 chance of your character dying as the result of a dice roll going against them is acceptable then one must also concede that what we are left with is an arguement about acceptable odds. Which is entirely subjective.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Uhm, saving throws are not an actual action... at least in 3e so how in a narrative would you kow if the protagonist did or didn't make one except in whether he did or didn't succumb to the result?

Yes exactly. Saving throws are an abstract.

No story or movie in anyway has the victims of her gaze slowing down, but still fighting...moving and everything else, or as I said before...recovering from looking at her.

No story of movie in anyway has the victims of her gaze shrugging it off, either.

Likewise, in most stories and movies, people die when they are killed. Not so with D&D.

 

[Wicht]

Likewise, in most stories and movies, people die when they are killed.

Except in soap operas, where they can sometimes come back the next season anyway as part of the plot.

and comic books, where the same thing happens.

and Lord of the Rings. where Gandalf gets another chance.

and The Frighteners, where not only does the antagonist come back from the dead, but so does the protoganist (twice).

and the Godzilla franchise where Godzilla gets a ton of do-overs.

But other than that, yeah, when someone dies, they are normally dead.

Of course, in most of my games, when people die they are normally considered dead as well.

 

[Bluenose]

Or if one wanted to look at it in a different light... Perseus was the only one who did make his Saving Throw... and on top of that his attack was a critical with maximum damage... ...nothing in the movie or story contradicts this interpretation.

His men on the other hand (again using Clash of the Titans since it's the most modern incarnation of medusa) do not get slowly turned to stone and none of them that succumb fight it off later. So what exactly is the 4e version even based on?

If you're basing your version of Medusa on Clash of the Titans rather than the original Greek myths, I'm not surprised I, doing the opposite, don't agree with you. The original story is just a bit different to the film.

 

[Imaro]

If you're basing your version of Medusa on Clash of the Titans rather than the original Greek myths, I'm not surprised I, doing the opposite, don't agree with you. The original story is just a bit different to the film.

Well since 4e is a game based on more modernized influences... I thought the Clash of the Titans medusa was more appropriate as an example, of course 4e doesn't model the most recent incarnation very well anyway so I guess it's a moot point.

But okay, since the difference must be relevant to the conversation... in which version again does medusa not change her victims to stone instantly with just a glance but instead slows them down and allows them to continue battling, fighting and moving as they wait to shrug the effect off? or is it, for all practical purposes not particularly relevant to the point of whether SoD models her power more accurately than SSSoD?

 

[Imaro]

Yes exactly. Saving throws are an abstract.



No story of movie in anyway has the victims of her gaze shrugging it off, either.

Wait so are you arguing about the SoD mechanic or just how the designers chose to implement it in 3.5 for the medusa?

I'll agree I don't think it should have been a Fort save, I think it should have been a Ref save myself to represent the involuntary flinching away, blinking, etc. that might allow one to survive contact with Medusa. But I still think SoD models it more towards the stories and movies featuring medusa than SSSoD does in the game.