D&D 3.x 3.5 Psionics.

[Dandu]

the other is beset by paralyzation when the group enters a town or other mildly social setting.

Why, was the town fireproof and lacking in whores?

 

[Bacris]

I'll definitely take your word on it due to lack of time with Psionics.
Though if it is the case that psionics is more balanced, it would have been nice had they applied these same "balanced" rules to the concepting for the traditional system instead of wasting time renaming some spells, adding some new ones and creating an entirely different type of "well, its not really magic but sort alike magic" system. But ah well, I suppose there's always 4th edition Psionics, heh.

Ah, but I could argue - by that sentiment - that there is nothing actually different between divine magic and arcane magic. They're the same thing, right?

Except they're not. Even if they can cast the same spells - the character concept is drastically different, the lore around the character and material is drastically different, yet they interact with each other mechanically the same way.

As someone who loved the CONCEPT of AD&D Psionics, who was very disappointed in 3.0 Psionics, and who loved 95% of the Expanded Psionics Handbook in 3.5, I can tell you that it's ALL about the flavor and how you implement it. And that, unfortunately, isn't always an easy thing to put on paper and explain to new people.

3.5 psionics had its mechanical issues - but it's more balanced than the core magic system. How can I say that? Because core magic could do Pun-Pun better than Pun-Pun, which was originally proof of how "psionics was broken." Magic has its own issues and, typically, its own houserules in just about every game I've ever been in. Heck, there are other parts of Core (PHB / DMG) that typically have houserules because the DM or players feel it is "broken" or "doesn't work", so folks who trot out the mechanical issues of psionics as the sole reason not to implement are kind of casting stones froma glass house.

3.5 psionic rules' biggest issue is the ability to go Nova - I won't argue that. However, magic users can also go nova - it's simply that psionics more clearly shows the problem and is easier to nova with for novices. All the classes are designed around the 4 encounter / day rule - expecting psionics to automatically be balanced in a game that doesn't follow that expectation is of course going to cause issues - just as the wizard / cleric / druid can use all of their daily abilities right off the bat and then not have to worry until everything has reset, thereby trivializing the encounter. The DMG specifically has suggestions of how to handle a party when you're not doing 4 encounters per day for a reason, after all.

As for the point about "why didn't they apply the balance to magic" - because the XPH came out significantly after the PHB, and Vancian spellcasting and the problems associated with it are a bit of a sacred cow. UA introduced a spell point system that does to magic what power points do to psionics. I've heard pros and cons about it, although I've never actually used it.

For me, however:
The XPH is about on par with the PHB in terms of balance. Take that as you will, considering CoDzilla.
The flavor of psionics as a concept is far cooler than hocus-pocus creating TVs and flinging poo, or invoking a higher power in hopes they'll grant you abilities for being so pious.
I'd rather rely on pure force of will to force the universe to do what YOU want.

 

[CuRoi]

Ah, but I could argue - by that sentiment - that there is nothing actually different between divine magic and arcane magic. They're the same thing, right?

I don't know...ask a bard to scribe a scroll of Cure Light and explain to the Wizard or the Cleric which one can use it and why... Just being facetuous btw.

Except they're not. Even if they can cast the same spells - the character concept is drastically different, the lore around the character and material is drastically different, yet they interact with each other mechanically the same way.

But are you saying this as opposed to Psionics? Divine/Arcane is just a descriptor applied to the same system. Divine and Arcane magic, regardless the different "source" follow the memorization mechanic and/or daily spell allotments. They also have the same schools and other shared attributes.

Psionics uses essentially a spell point system with "powers" which despite in some cases being literal copies of the "arcane" or "divine" spells are from a source which is alien to the core "magic". Ok, that sounds nifty, but really, do we need to introduce more rulesets for a bunch of renamed spells? And can we even expect this system to be balanced if run in combination with the other completely different (and arguably equally problematic) system.

Just make a sorcerer, take Eschew Components, and tell your DM you are "doing it all with your brain!" Tada - Psionicist and one less book to buy...

Magic has its own issues and, typically, its own houserules in just about every game I've ever been in. Heck, there are other parts of Core (PHB / DMG) that typically have houserules because the DM or players feel it is "broken" or "doesn't work", so folks who trot out the mechanical issues of psionics as the sole reason not to implement are kind of casting stones froma glass house.

Luckily I did not trot out mechanical issues as the sole reason and professed my own ignorance to the true balance of things. I imagine though that magic and psionics both generate house rules...it's a necesary feature of any DnD game I've ever played. I think trying to prove which one has forced more houserules might be a bit silly, but I'm sure magic wins hands down if only due to the much larger volume of material available.

Again though, I stil think the heart of the "its not balanced" debate is that Psionics doesn't mesh well with the established "magic" rule set nor does it even thematically fit in. There is no glass house, just an opinion. I'm under no illusion that the magic system is perfect and I even admitted previously that in some ways psionics handles things better.

3.5 psionic rules' biggest issue is the ability to go Nova - I won't argue that. However, magic users can also go nova - it's simply that psionics more clearly shows the problem and is easier to nova with for novices.

I won't argue higher level magic isn't busted or even begin to say which is broken more - that would be silly. But if low-level Psionics can "nova" and own an encounter whereas low-level mages can "sputter" and pray the Druid cleans things up, then I'd say players will at least perceive there is a general balance issue when you try to mix the two different Magic / Power systems.

As for the point about "why didn't they apply the balance to magic" - because the XPH came out significantly after the PHB, and Vancian spellcasting and the problems associated with it are a bit of a sacred cow. UA introduced a spell point system that does to magic what power points do to psionics. I've heard pros and cons about it, although I've never actually used it.

Sure, XPH came out after the PHB. Of course the shiny new PHB v .5 came out several years later (along with yet another book to update psionics as well). That still doesn't mean I don't feel time and money would have been better spent offering a solid, better balanced alternative to the vancian magic system instead of devising an entirely new system for what seems to me to be a different genre of game.

The flavor of psionics as a concept is far cooler than hocus-pocus creating TVs and flinging poo, or invoking a higher power in hopes they'll grant you abilities for being so pious.
I'd rather rely on pure force of will to force the universe to do what YOU want.

This is pretty much what the argument boils down to and I totally agree. It's which one is "Cooler". I for one, don't think the spoon-bending is "cooler". I mean you can have a patron deity with infinite power granting your spells or you can have finite power fueled by an infinite ego regarding your limited power... I see the attraction, but I'll take the poo flingers still.

BTW - I still like Mind Flayers...they eat brains and that's pretty cool.

 

[Particle_Man]

Why must you be a powergamer to tell if they are balanced?

I'll definitely take your word on it due to lack of time with Psionics.
Though if it is the case that psionics is more balanced, it would have been nice had they applied these same "balanced" rules to the concepting for the traditional system instead of wasting time renaming some spells, adding some new ones and creating an entirely different type of "well, its not really magic but sort alike magic" system.

Personally, I like the psionics mechanics but not the flavour. I would actually pay money if someone else did the work to reskin all the races, classes (base and prestige), feats, skills (autohypnosis, psicraft, knowledge (psionics)), powers and psionic items. Since most of what is in the XPH is OGL this is possible for that book but not for Complete Psionic. But as far as I know no one has actually done it yet. (As said earlier, possible skins could include gem magic, fey magic, etc.).

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

That still doesn't mean I don't feel time and money would have been better spent offering a solid, better balanced alternative to the vancian magic system

They did. It's called the XPH.

 

[irdeggman]

Just make a sorcerer, take Eschew Components, and tell your DM you are "doing it all with your brain!" Tada - Psionicist and one less book to buy...

Except that Eschew Components only works for less than 1 gp components and doesn't eliminate somatic or verbal components also doesn't eliminate focus required from spells.

Can't eliminate the gloves required for the various Bigby hand spells (foci) nor can the the 100 gp pearl from the Identify spell this way.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Bacris basically knows psionics better then WotC does, so there's that.

Incidentally, psionics is far closer to how I see "magic" then Vancian casting is. Magic isn't rubbing together bat poop or eating spiders, it's not learning bizarro dance moves and having a book of the worst tasting cooking recipes ever, it's your mind and your will grabbing hold of reality and saying "No, you change."

 

[Bacris]

Thanks, ProfessorCirno. I won't knock Bruce Cordell, tho - he did a great job on the XPH (even if I think he phoned it in on Complete Psionic - or didn't fight for it).

In an interview I did for the Know Direction Pathfinder podcast, I made a reference to a few fantasy books where "magic" actually more closely matched psionics mechanics. The best reference that comes to mind for me is in Raymond Feist's Magician: Master book. Milamber / Pug in the Imperial Stadium for the games, and he just lays down a show of power that nobody else can match. But this show of power? It doesn't use formula, rituals, components, or even words. It's just pure force of will, drawing internal reserves of energy and being a general bad-a.

That's not arcane or divine magic. That's psionics.

 

[Wyvernhand]

A lot of people reference the nova-ability of psionics. Most of the people who do don't understand the mechanics behind the two fundamental laws of psionics...THOU SHALT NOT SPEND MORE PP ON A POWER (metapsionics included) THAN THOU HAST MANIFESTER LEVELS! The other thing people don't realize is that metapsionics require you to expend your focus, so you can't stack them like metamagic! If you Twin a power, you can't also Empower it (well, you could if you had Psicrystal Containment, but you still couldn't do it two rounds in a row, and you spent 4 feats to do it). Plus, the power points you spend on metapsionics are points you aren't using to augment that power. So, sure it does 1.5x more damage, but its not at max dice like a spell would be.

Yea, if you are abusing Scism or Syncronicity or especially Affinity Field, you can squeeze a bit more juice out per round, but you still have to follow the above two rules, which is a lot of investment. Thats still a pretty steep investment of resources to get an extra couple damage out.

 

[Jhaelen]

Yea, if you are abusing Scism or Syncronicity or especially Affinity Field, you can squeeze a bit more juice out per round, but you still have to follow the above two rules, which is a lot of investment. Thats still a pretty steep investment of resources to get an extra couple damage out.

It's still easy to go nova. Using three fully augmented powers every round, our party's psion can deplete his pp's extremely fast if he isn't careful. Typically, towards the end of the combat he's either just trying to stay out of trouble, doing nothing or using maintainable powers (telekinesis/energy current, etc.) and items (dorjes, etc.).